And still radio silent on that and all the other bugs wrong with the class. And they want to release THIS when they can’t even fix the bugs or balance now in the current game? I honestly look forward to seeing how badly this is implemented because they’re going to ignore feedback and bug problems from everyone like they always do
5 Likes
Saw Max reviewing the hero talents, and Trickster joined Oracle and Lightsmith in the ‘really bad rework these completely’ club.
And I fully agree with him, we saw that they can release absolute banger hero talent trees with other classes (both thematically and mechanically), let’s not settle for any less for Rogues (or any other class) either!
4 Likes
The concept of Trickster to me means a combination of utility tools using Sub and Outlaw.
So in other words enhanced versions of Distract, Smoke bomb, Tricks of the trade, Gouge, Sprint, Kick, Feint, Crimson vial, etc.
While the Trickster theme is in the right direction it is always hard to quantify utility tools for DPS (eg Acrobatic Strikes).
The debuff concept of phazed seems similar to Find Weakness and Bandit’s Guile. But for the phazed debuff to be worth it, and be on a single target, it would have to provide a lot of damage potential.
But then again if the phazed debuff is easily applied then it just becomes similar to poisons.
1 Like
THIS !
I’ve been saying it for years now : What Subtlety needs is to go back to what it was during Cata / MoP and add some passives and spells that existed at some point or still exists (even if some could be changed a bit) ; And there’s a lot of it !
As for the Trickster, pretty much everything i think about it has already been said.
4 Likes
I don’t like feint as a dps cooldown.
Too many buttons already and feint won’t be available for defense/utility when we need it as we have to use for offense (similar issue with shiv for assassination).
6 Likes
Its unlikely it will ever go truly back to the past especially with how sped up things are so subtlety needs to be able to keep up. We wouldn’t “need” thieve’s bargain and shadowdust and cdr on dance etc if we just had an SV equivalent to bridge the gap. Fazed / Unseen Blade interactions “might” be it based on uptime of the auto attack or using a feint or secret technique and the dodging parts while struck to activate it along with pre pull distract smoke bomb (might actually work well in theory) . coup de grace and surprising strikes might come up enough to alleviate some of this and hopefully it is. ( a nudge in the opposite direction but not full swing)
It is nice this offers something on demand though through multiple interactions and I dig that as a positive note.
Deathstalker needs to definitely be careful on not being too solid or it just becomes default and they just nerf us to compensate for deathstalker amping dance creating silly “1 shots” and some goon makes a video blowing things out of proportion.(its exhausting). I would think since DS is shared between us and Assassination that it will probably have some rupture activated stuff which is cool and mastery focus for finishers in some unique ways.
Also, I do dig flawless form for the mastery amps but hopefully it is pretty decent once again on the UB uptime to keep things rolling. More to be seen and this is an early preview anyway.
Still voicing for more punch / access to close the gap a little out of dance though. In pvp if you’re cc’ing a lot or being controlled a lot, nothing is happening and you are playing stun bot simulator for other classes to hold down their tony hawk combos and doing no actual pressure yourself. PVE side is cool but they don’t have Chuck E cheese robots intelligently coming out cc’ing and kicking their healer’s behind.
Still looking forward to this tree and the possibilities it can bring but won’t really know till we get to actually test it. If the up time is decent then it will go a long way if the tuning is there. Im pretty much thinking of it as hemorrhage kinda sorta and that is a very good thing.
1 Like
Only thing I’ll reiterate is that hero talents should absolutely not be used to fix issues with a base spec, nobody will end up feeling good about it as time goes on.
Let’s keep asking for the specs to be fixed and hero talents to be able to stand on their own as fun modifiers to the specs they cover. They can do all that we know this, and they asked for feedback so lets make sure we are heard!
6 Likes
Nothing new was added. You just changed buffs and debuffs. Getting extremely lazy with this.
1 Like
This is how I’d approach the Tricker Rogue hero talents while keeping to the theme presented (subject to balancing, of course):
Unseen Blade
Feint and Shadow Dance now generate 2 combo points and quickly slash with an unseen blade dealing damage to nearby enemies. Targets struck are Fazed for 5 seconds, which causes them to take 5% more damage from you and be unable to parry your attacks.Feint no longer reduces damage taken from area of effect attacks, but you now take 20% less damage from area of effect attacks at all times.
Surprising Strikes
(Unchanged from what Blizzard proposed)
Smoke
(Unchanged from what Blizzard proposed)
Mirrors
You take an additional 5% reduced damage from area of effect attacks at all times.
Flawless Form
Feint and Shadow Dance are no longer affected by the global cooldown.Triggering Unseen Blade also increases your mastery by 3% for 5 seconds. Multiple applications may overlap.
So Tricky
(Unchanged from what Blizzard proposed)
Fade To Black - NEW
You can activate stealth during combat so long as no hostile enemies are within 30 yards of you.
Devious Distractions
Distract can now be used during combat and is no longer affected by the global cooldown. Using Distract or any crowd control effect on a target affected by Fazed will refresh its duration.
Thousand Cuts
(Unchanged from what Blizzard proposed)
Flickerstrike
Finishing moves have a 20% chance to trigger Unseen Blade per combo point used. A second Unseen Blade may occur when using more than 5 combo points.
Nimble Flurry
If used while moving, Feint will dash you a short distance in the direction you are traveling and cause Unseen Blade to hit all enemies in your path.Using Shadow Dance grants extra 2 charges of Feint for the next 10 seconds. These extra charges can be stored above your normal maximum Feint charges.
Cloud Cover
Distract now produces a cloud of smoke which lasts for 10 seconds and has its cooldown increased to 90 seconds. Any damage dealt to enemies targets within the cloud afflicts them with Fazed for 5 seconds.For most enemies, the cloud of smoke also blocks line of sight.
No Scruples
(Unchanged from what Blizzard proposed)
Elaborate Twirl
Fazed and Flawless Form last 2 seconds longer.
Coup De Grace
After 4 strikes with Unseen Blade your next Dispatch, Eviscerate, or Black Powder will be performed as a Coup De Grace, dealing 40% increased damage and granting 5 stacks of Flawless Form.Every excess stack of Flawless Form this would produce is instead treated as though you had spent one additional combo point on your Coup De Grace.
2 Likes
I think one of the problem with all the rogue specs at the moment is just how much of everything is crammed into burst cooldowns. You have Kingsbane on Sin, Dance on Sub, and Crackshot on Outlaw. Outlaw isn’t hugely a burst spec, but it’s still important to manage those windows. They’re up so consistantly that mismanagement of them does impact your overall dps quite negatively. This fient ability won’t affect Sin, but it will Sub, and as with outlaw, filling in another ability at the start and during your windows while you work your rotation is just… awful, I guess? I don’t look forward to managing a small, micro maintainence buff during cooldown window at all.
But it highlights a larger problem with the specs, I guess. The new tree reworks are, by and large, fine. There will be complaints because there always are, but by and large I think we all agree that they were an improvement over what was before. However, the specs are packed, rotationally speaking, and become complex during cooldown windows. A five percent increase of damage would only further pack those windows, result in another weakaura to track it, and punish you more for mistakes. In and of itself, none of it is bad, but I have to wonder if, across the three specs, we’ve reached a point where it’s just bad gameplay to add more to this?
4 Likes
Personally I think the reworks were not fully finished. There are flaws, such as Sub example: you have to path through Improved Shuriken Storm to grab… Exhilarating Execution? ok… and you have to take… Shot in the Dark and Shrouded in Darkness to grab… Swift Death…? Most talent trees have a theme going for them as you path down a certain side, Sub doesn’t have that, its a mess.
Furthermore many things are not even a choice; Sin doesn’t work without Kingsbane, but KB isnt a core ability of Sin, its a capstone. There are no builds that doesn’t use kingsbane. Its not the biggest problem since Sin rogues overall love KB, but then for Sub, massively slow down energy regen to a crawl like all the other spec to put more into burst windows, then introduce a massive CDR button out of nowhere that will further deny Vanish as a utility button more than it already was that completely takes over the spec because such CDR is simply broken (if it wasn’t, then it would never ever be taken, its either or with these things)
Those are not healthy, its not the worst, but its not great. So when we read something like Trickster, we are trying to fit the idea of it into already complicated and flawed talent trees… and find that its just adding to an existing issue.
And that won’t feel good for anyone involved.
5 Likes
eh seems good, cant complain about extra damage or damage reduction anywhere we get it but cant call these ‘hero’ talents new and headline expansion as the main content. theres nothing new.
sub and outlaws entire ‘hero’ tree is a proc off of feint and or autos that basically is antropic poison on ‘fazed’ targets and multiple of the ensuing talents are just increasing the damage you do by a minimal % and decreasing the enemies damage the same. not really intriguing.
the only half decent thing besides the first talent is the last increasing your finisher by 40% after your 4 procs of unseen blade. also remove feint cleaving damage thats just stupid kudos for makin it a point generator though
Oh, yes i know that, i merely stated what they should do with Sub, but i don’t expect them to do anything good.
Some time ago (on the us or fr forums, or both, i don’t remember), i suggested (among other things of course) that Deepening Shadow shoud reduce the cooldown of Vanish instead of ShD and i still think it would be better.
Invigorating Shadowdust wasn’t a thing at that time so that talent would need to be nerfed or removed entirely (but i feel like everyone hates Invigorating Shadowdust so…)
2 Likes
idk all just seems like things or something you guys wanted to have in our trees but just couldnt for whatever reasons and now adding it to a ‘sub’ tree to our main ones that doesnt do very much at all, a wrinkle in what are the current trees in the game
I wish I had objective numbers, but that talent was something nobody asked for, wanted or even thought about.
There are a few who like it, good for them, but like you I do not believe one bit a majority likes it. If it wasn’t for their damage output, sub would easily be way down the least played list.
What annoys me to be honest right now is that I hope Sub gets properly reworked, as hopium as that is. But since we don’t know that’s happening we have to review the hero talents based on the current talents… And how on earth do you make something fun with that kit is a question for the ages.
Trickster ain’t it.
3 Likes
Well it’s a feeling based on feedbacks posted here on the forums, so not that accurate but it gives a good idea of what people think of it.
As long as we have that dumb spec that’s following Legion “rework” (or should i say “ruination” ?), entirely based on Shadow Dance with CDR and no damage outside of it, the spec will never be fun.
4 Likes
Issue is groups of individuals like burst donkey, what they don’t realize is if sanguinary vein returned for 15% (was still in legion via nightblade) we would still crank, we just wouldn’t be useless as heck out of cds. SV/NB was stripped because they complained enough when that was always a Subtlety tool.
Ill ride this train as long as it takes man. The rogues that were around for legion’s beginning should have stood up instead of agreeing with certain discords and entities.
1 Like
I’m not too sure it would’ve changed anything, the devs were dead set on their vision of Subtlety…
With Classic Cataclysm coming soon, maybe some people will realize that the Cataclysm Subtlety iteration was the best we ever had (along with MoP, they were basically the same).
That is if they’re able to play it decently though…
4 Likes
Yeah aint going back but dang ya know.
Hopefully they have more info to talk about with the new bg too. Im excited for that as well.
1 Like
Member actual shuriken storm funnel into ST thicc evisc?
I member. (and how instead of just tuning it or capping it on Zul, they just yeeted the whole thing)
2 Likes