Here’s my issue, hopefully it makes sense and you understand what I mean; a hero talent should not be used to fix an issue with the base class. That is a recipe for disaster and an extremely bad gameplay experience.
Sub has no sustain outside dance, that is known. It’s like MM hunters, outside 2m trueshot they do nothing at all, which reflects on their overall output. It is a problem yes.
Dust on sub is a bandaid to that, which means they didn’t have to overtune the bursts to compensate but in return creates a terrible gameplay experience. I argue it’s not a good solution, neither is making your generators do all the damage. Finishers is what’s fun to press as Sub, not gloom blade.
So then what is trickster supposed to do? Cause it sure as hell isn’t doing anything to help sustain, it clearly would wedge itself into the massively busy dance windows for extra amps.
Thematically I understand what trickster should be, but I ain’t feeling anything when reading the tree.
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as i started in a post above yours.
legion is 8 years old and classic is 12. theres only a few years until modern is older than classic. also keep in mind that vanish in classic was used as a extender more than a defensive arguably. i know everyone can leave whatever feedback they feel is good for the spec but i also hope people temper expectation and dont gaslight themselves into thinking that something that shown no hints or signs of changing is gonna be changed
Unseen Blade should be triggered by Ambush not Feint
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At that point just call it Find Weakness 2.0
Like if we are at the point of trying to find alternatives to this tree’s issues just to make it ‘ok’, scrap the tree and make something else that is more interesting. We know they can do great trees, other class, not all, but most have great thematic and mechanics on their revealed.
We have neither on Trickster. We need a different idea, Fazed is just… not it.
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I stopped playing my outlaw rogue because my hands would be in physical pain at the end of every raid night or a long M+ session, and I feel like having to hit Feint every 4 seconds is going to make that problem worse.
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Fun is subjective, murdering jokers with a backstab was great building into a fat eviscerate. They tuned pve like they did pvp into a stun bot like prior seasons of this expansion and then they would be ticked.
Hemorrhage went away to make pvers happy and backstab which was a hard hitting button when you didn’t have dance was perfect. Both hard hitting finishers and decent backstabs / gloomblades can coexist through talents.
When finishers are doing solid damage, subtlety gets nerfed and back into support class status for others is what we fall back to and it stinks.
MM can still do 140k arcane shots and rapid fire resets enough where each arrow can still slam for 40-60k x7. Not sure how or why but good for them. I understand what you’re saying bubs but when people’s dots like a spastic feral are doing more or assassination’s dots while we are playing get back to dance simulator… that aint cool.
Any rogue that has rogued up a very long time aint cool with what legion did. A nudge but not full swing in the opposite direction is imminent at some point regardless of how many cd stacking tony hawk tricks people want to do as it isn’t sustainable. Theres a reason assassination and outlaws kit has acquired a lot of subtlety’s tools over the years and especially now.
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To be fair I think we agree on most things more than it seems.
Yeah, I agree, and is a huge reason I despise Dust, as it fuels into that style. Dances don’t feel special right now, they are the only way sub does their baseline damage.
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??? Thats how sub has always been.
I am done with stupid names for rogue.
Trickster → swordmaster
sinister strike: 10% chance for impossibly sharp cut: what unseen blade does. Thanks.
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Honestly the names for the hero specs are pretty Cliche and so very heard of? Death stalker… why not Shadow runner, Dark shade, or Shadow wielder.
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My point is, right now Dust is overwhelming the spec because all the power was shifted into Dance + DM sequence. The extremely low energy regen FURTHER pushed the ‘reset dance’ meta, and in a world where Dust exist, the spec can’t breathe and can’t provide fun options for different build at a competitive level.
If we add Trickster to the mix, we’re just further cramming stuff into that window.
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Even as a capstone, you’d just force sub rogues to give up more points to path to it. CDR of that level for a spec that wasnt built for it to begin with is way too strong, it will never be an option.
But I understand btw, we don’t have to agree, no harm no foul 
I just don’t like the direction of Sub, and how Trickster would make it worse, imo
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Death Stalker reminds me of Undead Rogues.
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As an alt Sub player who is bad at the spec and primarily pvp, I find myself excited to test Trickster Sub rogue, and Subs other Hero talent option. My main reason for not maining Sub currently is low damage for the effort with 80+% mastery and 40+% Vers still providing weak average Evis damage and Secret Tech only really hitting hard if the stars align. If I was to play Sub full time its ease of use would need to be improved, I do not expect that to happen though.
I’ll say this and leave it be as this is about trickster and rogue stuff moving forward concerning the war within:
Any class who got crammed into 1 cool down and revolve primarily on that ability a doing jack outside of it would be ticked. Back in the day when dance was a hard 1 min cd, it felt strong as heck, there were no extra steps. Fattttt ambushes and fattt eviscerates to shake someones ancestors.
Macbre is kinda sorta old FW but we are building it. Simultaneously, we aren’t at full power till the end opposed to before and now we need added buttons to get the same results for more of the effort. Dance by itself doesn’t do much its tied together to ramp now instead of feeling like a yeh boy moment.
Sanguinary vein held us over till the next impactful dance and decent damage through rupture and backstab doing its job. There’s a big reason cataclysm and wod had things right for subtlety. The over obsession with dance and needing more cds to make something great that worked perfectly fine before aint it and isn’t sustainable down the line as Subtlety is constantly nerfed due to that. We were told we aren’t going to any of the past iterations but for the sake of subtlety, more of what made us great in the past should and needs to be incorporated moving forward instead of “needing” dance + trinkets + 6+ stacks of macabre + secret technique + offensive of choice (flag stacks / sepsis / x) + tea + whatever other silly nonsense some people swear is fun.
I dig a challenge but existing only in this 8s window and doing nothing out of it isn’t.
Anyway, I still look forward to the war within and whatever the war within brings rogues as a whole and I sincerely hope every rogue main that has been a rogue for a long time maturely shows up and tests in beta for the future of our class in a healthy way instead of looking to meme and abuse whatever like SL beta and BFA beta instead of pushing personal agendas and becoming an echo chamber. I hope people think for themselves and that all rogues lend their voices moving forward and that all voices are considered and talents and play styles arise in a healthy direction instead of “looking for one shots” in the content of their choosing. When tuning goes south, rogues become stun bots and that aint cool for us that do nothing but rogue since the beginning. We don’t jump ship and good off on alts.
I dig lingering + rotten + perforated to revive a long lost art of precision , planning, and meaningful damage. Im a big time gloomblade advocate and others can choose to talent how they wish WITHOUT disrupting others or pioneering for gimmicks to take over. Devs already stated several times, no single ability will hijack the kit again which is healthy and responsible. I’ll forever only be Subtlety as I always have since I started in tbc. I don’t jump ship or bandwagon.
I apologize for the long but deeply heartfelt response. Its just very agitating that one aspect of subtlety has been hyper fixated on since legion when subtlety is so much more than that. Subtlety always combined its tools to do well and shouldn’t be make or break on 1 aspect of us.
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This, I feel, is where we connect completely. Trickster wouldn’t be such a problem for Sub if Sub wasn’t already that massive cramming of everything under the sun with a hyper specific order needing a massive CDR since you otherwise do nothing. I fully believe this conversation was fruitful and related to Trickster directly because of the interaction with such a tree and the (flawed imo) kit.
Will be right up there with ya. People might criticize Beta access with pre-order, but the upside is people wanting to test will be in there and have a chance to be heard instead of waiting for a lottery ticket.
See you on the target dummies?
And may Trickster be turned into something better, both for Sub and Outlaw!
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Yep I’ll be there testing and reporting like crazy dude like always. Things have got to change for sure.
For the better of all rogue kind.
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Heck yeah, give us AOE Crimson Vial. 
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Hey while we’re on the topic of rogue talents, what about sub rogue’s sprint over water which they removed at DF launch without even a patch note?
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Member when we took no fall damage and baited people to their death by jumping down the elevator shaft in Vault of the Wardens?
I member!
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