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Requires total redesign. Keep the tricks talent so I can troll my healer, but that’s it.
18 Likes
Excited for hero talents, especially on a triple dps spec like rogue. Has the potential to add a lot of flavor/agency over playstyle. Lots of thoughts on this initial tree though and its potential downsides.
Pros:
-Feels on point thematically for “trickster”
-Coup de Grace offers an added layer of intricacy that allows for some value in tracking/setup but doesn’t necessarily need to be focused on to see some value. Good balance of passive value and added skill cap.
-1 Hour Tricks is amazing QoL
-Reduced CD on blind for more reliable AoE stops feels great in m+(sad its a choice node with the above)
Cons:
Feint as an Offensive Rotation Ability: I see the idea of trying to make feint feel less bad to press by giving it offensive value, but I think this implementation backfires with giving too much offensive value likely resulting in it becoming a core offensive rotational ability. For Outlaw, Feint has around a 4-6s cd with the cdr from Restless Blades. We would likely end up with Feint being one of our highest priority generators and walking around with permanent Feint DR buff. Unfortunately, the majority of the tree revolves around this Fazed effect and while it is applied from other sources, the AoE application from Feint further shifts it towards becoming a primarily offensive ability.
Sub vs Outlaw Value: Feint as a rotational ability poses a balancing challenge because Sub does not have the same CDR as Outlaw and would benefit vastly less from these talents. This would result in situations where Sub has to choose to lose offensive value on Feint to preserve it for an incoming damage source where it is needed defensively, while Outlaw can simply press it on cooldown for maximum offensive and defensive value.
Killing Spree: Outlaw is a spec heavily focused around a well connected kit of abilities that almost all interact with each other in some way. Killing Spree’s current implementation has little impact or synergy with the parts of the kit that make Outlaw so enjoyable to play. A 10% buff to KS doesn’t address these issues and while it may make KS more competitive, it won’t make it feel better to press. Some interactions that KS could support would be Count the Odds or added Restless Blades interaction(maybe KS also casts some dispatches). A talent that adds this interaction would go a lot further to improve the representation of KS beyond a flat 10% damage increase. The Fazed application of KS also has minimal value with how easily Fazed would be applied with Feint as Outlaw.
Incentivizing Standing in Fire: This one seems like it could be fun but would most likely lead to some very undesired gameplay. Flickerstrike puts a LOT of value on being hit by AoE attacks and with the extremely high damage reduction that rogue has to AoE, you would be actively searching for things like spinning attacks or other high tick rate AoE to add damage. Healers out there already have a hard enough job as it is.
23 Likes
There are certainly concerning factors with this tree… quite a few of them if I’m being honest.
The number 1 is making feint a “damage cooldown” of sorts. For sub this might work ok, stacking the damage amp/mastery buff for big hitting sec tech windows is what sub already does. For outlaw however, you can already maintain 100% feint uptime, and this tree would almost certainly make it a dps gain to do so.
My first concern is people are already overwhelmed by the amount going on with outlaws rotation and adding another plate to spin will probably not be well received. Also tying it to what is a defensive ability will make people upset, and worries me for a very specific reason.
Outlaw is already one of the tankiest dps (if not the most tanky dps) in the game. If this talent tree goes through, and outlaw is now maintaining 100% or close to 100% feint uptime, are you really ok with the spec having a permanent 50% aoe wall (and 20% everything wall if talented) thats a dps gain to maintain? My worry is you plan to nerf feint, at least for outlaw, quite substantially to deal with this.
As for killing spree, the problems inherent to the talent on live remain. My primary concern is killing spree doesnt actually do anything. It doesn’t have any interaction with how law functions, in many ways it actually works in opposition to your goals (press as many buttons as you can as fast as possible), and this tree does not fix this.
You add numbers to kspree to perhaps make it worth pressing on cd, but a mastery buff? Outlaws mastery doesn’t do anything. Its a passive damage amplifier with no interactions with the spec, so you cant use this window of stacked up mastery in anyway. It doesnt gain added value out of crackshots, or procs, or AR. Killing spree is a very cool spell thematically and animation wise, but it simply does not interact with any of the buffs, stats or procs that modern outlaw uses rotationally.
As it stands killing spree would just be a button you press every 30-40s between stealths which is basically a slightly larger hit then BtE and afks your character for 2-2.5s. Very disappointing, I hope you have some plans for killing sprees design to accompany this class tree and make the ability more enjoyable to play.
17 Likes
Initial thoughts;
This is pushing rogue utility buttons even more into DPS rotations. This is a bad idea, bad implementation. Rogues have less and less actual utility buttons that are not shoehorned in their DPS rotation.
Sub Rogues are already strangled by Shadowdust, which overtook the spec completely. So first things first; delete shadowdust
For the rest, the basic idea of creating opening by tricking your ennemies is not a bad idea, but all these 5s fazed makes it so the dmg windows will get increasingly more complex than it is already.
24 Likes
Words cannot express how much I HATE this. Outlaw rogue is already WAY too complex, and on top of that, you want to make Feint an offensive ability and add that to the already overloaded rotation? Baffling, truly. Two words describe these hero talents: cognitive overload. Classes are too complex.
29 Likes
Hey,
Pros: hour long tricks? but threat in general is just cringe like why does rogue just not have to deal with it but then other classes afk at the start of pulls?
Cons: feint as a rotational is silly. it’s a defensive
nothing to do with trickster theme? vanish and shadowclones were a rogue theme that has existed and have not been built on, having some sick shadowclone effects were what I was praying for but instead we got killingspree which interacts with nothing in our kit.
and it gives us mastery which is a dead stat for outlaw…
overall just disappointed, was really hoping something that would make me feel more elusive like a trickster but instead it’s just going to be untunable and clunky for outlaw especially after we lose our current 4p. here’s to hoping fatebound is better.
8 Likes
Overall I feel a bit mixed on the tree revealed.
I think turning Feint into a DPS cooldown is just inherently going to feel a bit awkward. First, just because it’s only been a defensive for years, having to rework your brain is just going to make it a hard transition, but in addition, taking away the freedom of its defensive use feels like it’s going to lead to annoying instances where you die because you improperly used Feint for DPS.
Secondly, while I love Killing Spree and want it to be a strong talent, I think it is inherently weak. For one, I believe KS should be rebalanced; Longer CD, maybe less damage, but each KS hit should count as a Dispatch cast. This means that talents like Count the Odds, and Summarily Dispatched feel more impactful and fun to build around. The other issue with KS is the whole animation lock, even though I would argue skill issue to anybody dying during KS, I it is a bit annoying to have this spell that semi-unpredictably jumps you around and potentially can cause deaths be the core of this tree. I think KS could be turned into something like Blade Dance, where you press KS, and the animation goes, but you can still move and cast your abilities while it’s active.
In closing, I want Killing Spree to be the focus of this tree for sure, but I think both Killing Spree, and the tree itself should be tweaked to make Killing Spree more appealing of a spell.
7 Likes
Rogues are already completely immune to my best defensive, ToK with CloS and now they’re going to be completely immune to my 2nd best defensive, FoF parry.
I love being free kills to Rogues, thanks Blizz
3 Likes
I played rogue for like 10 years.
I dont see the appeal of feint as a offensive rotational ability, i guess you would have to see how it plays.
8 Likes
Feint as an offensive cooldown is a road block for me. Honestly, a hard no. Would not want to play this tree because of it.
If you’re truly wanting to keep this tree mostly like the same, I would:
- remove the Feint interaction completely
- switch it to work with Blade Flurry and Symbols instead
- reduce the impact of the tree to compensate this being more passive
10 Likes
Going more in dept, mostly from a Sub rogue perspective
Unseen Blade
Feint as a DPS cd is an absolute no. Enough with hijacking utility, theres so much power in Vanish its not even a utility anymore. For Sub it adds even more complexity to an already complex danse macabre damage sequence.
I am not agains the Unseen Blade effect itself, just not using Feint for it or any other defensives.
Fazed
5sec debuff in theory isn’t bad, you sequence it before your heavy hitters. But as said above, how much more complex are we planning to make sub rogues? How many different GCDs must we insert into a shadow dance?
Coup de Grace
Having to line this up with all the other amps… yeah thats not fun at all at this point, its bloat.
Shadowdust
Reminder that this needs to go from the spec tree, so that it doesn’t further hijacks the spec. When combined with ideas like Trickster, it just makes the spec even less accessible.
All in all I am not against the idea of a trickster, I reiterate. I expected something with Distract, kinda like Torghast when they attached bombs to targets. But the implementation just adds so much insane micro complexity to an already complex spec
Also… Feint! Why feint! We have distract, pick pocket, pick lock even! Whatever else but our defensives!
Btw friends I understand if anyone sees things differently, these are my opinions. I stopped playing Sub due to Shadowdust primarily, and Trickster is doubling down on the same idea, ripping away utility even more in favor of complexifying a spec I otherwise loved.
12 Likes
Forced Talent selections have been placed before players yet again. There is a reason players don’t like some of those talents/abilities, they function terribly and or are poor in output. GCDs are very valuable no matter the type of content played, trying to have players utilize a poor output ability is almost the definition of insanity: trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result each time. I am still not excited about more talent selections and abilities being locked behind specializations. Let’s just narrow the meta selection even further by adding more things that affect output and functionality.
2 Likes
Here is my quick thoughts and feedback:
Wouldn’t Feint break CC based on how the Unseen Blade mechanic works? If so can you use Feint defensively in PVE and PVP situations? I guess creating distance from the CC target?
Fazed targets are debuffed right? if so doesn’t that limit Rogue to targets with the debuff? Also how easy is it to apply the debuff?
FlickerStrike description is like Unfair advantage mechanic in that Unseen Blade would be triggered. Except for the fact is that you can control for the most part when you have Unfair advantage procs (eg use Evasion). But according to the description that could trigger with any AoE damage taken too. How is the proc rate on Unseen Blade determined in such scenarios?
Turning Distract into an ability like Smokebomb while interesting begs the question. Is this purely to make a PVE version of Smoke bomb?
Mastery for Outlaw is really bad so what makes it interesting to stack Flawless form?
Lots of testing to do because there is a lot of uncertainty.
4 Likes
Top tier meme names, love it. The theme for it is actually pretty good
I don’t like that it’s another button that’s defensive in nature in the rotation but it does play out well for the plate spinners. It’s bad for anyone who wants to casually play outlaw but the hardcore will drink that tea up. I honestly would have done this with sinister strike and backstab so it flows better AND makes those abilities more worthwhile.
Flawless form should be something that is consumed on next finisher or proc of main gauche with a longer duration. I would make it so main gauche consumes a stack each time and allow sub to do those big burst things with consuming all stacks.
Fazed mechanic - you need to fix the fact that killing spree cancels when the target has parry/evasion mechanics up. Because it was updated to a finishing move, it’s checking this and getting dodged/parried then ends.
Sap doesn’t need that much increased range, that talent is just too much. Going to be sapping evokers from range almost the same range as their cast range.
Hope this tree gets killing spree fixed/buffed more for next expansion
4 Likes
I like the theme of this. Conceptually I’m enjoying the idea of gameplay changes and skill expression surrounding the usage of the Fazed mechanic, and the bit of utility it adds in making your attacks unable to be parried.
I don’t mind plate spinning. I’m used to it as outlaw, so that’s fine. However, I do think that Feint was an odd choice. For outlaw we’re going to be able to maintain near 100% uptime on that due to Float giving Feint CDR, so it becomes a maintenance buff we’ll have to press possibly every 5 seconds to maximize damage. That seems rather excessive, even for plate spinning enthusiasts, and especially on an ability that is supposed to be a defensive.
I’m not sure why an already existing rotational ability was not chosen to apply the debuff, like sinister strike/backstab or dispatch/evis. Maybe secret tech and killing spree could apply the debuff at double effectiveness to keep it interactive and skillful for lining up bursts, without having to awkwardly force a defensive ability into a damage rotation.
2 Likes
Super unimpressed by the feint change, honestly. It’s such a good defensive, one of the things that seperate good rogue play and bad in higher content, and now you’re going to take that away and turn it into an offensive button? Hard to say how disappointing that is.
In addition, I dunno, both sub and outlaw are pretty fast to play. I’d argue that outlaw in particular suffers from a bit of button bloat (or at least the need for a lot of cognitive attention - and sub with the new cooldown reduction playstyle asks for more too)… anyhow, I’d argue that the last thing either spec kind’ve needs is more rotatinal buttons. Just don’t see why you’d add more atm.
7 Likes
I’m not sure why an already existing rotational ability was not chosen to apply the debuff, like sinister strike/backstab or dispatch/evis. Maybe secret tech and killing spree could apply the debuff at double effectiveness to keep it interactive and skillful for lining up bursts, without having to awkwardly force a defensive ability into a damage rotation.
100% think it could be tied to abilities like sinister strike, backstab, or whatever.
4 Likes
absolutely, I am myself not asking for the spec to be ultra dumbed down, but shadowdust has to go, and avoiding bloating up already busy burst windows further is kind of an important thing
3 Likes
i believe that its universally agreed that feint being used rotationally brings more harm to the spec than good. i believe trickster would be better if it fully uses killing spree of ghoostly strike as its main source of unseen blades
i especially want to see killing spree thrive, theres alot of good ideas here such as foreveryguys suggestion to make each ks hit be a dispatch to make the outlaw have another engine than just restless blades. i also think its issues also stem from it being a captstone, i think it would be better if it was moved upward.
5 Likes