Legion was the start of rogue over reliance on cooldowns and growing emphasis of shadow dance.
Depending on the uptime on fazed/ unseen blade could address some of that as far as pool noodle backstabs (hopefully) and swing us slightly into older days where even killing elite npcs without cds wasn’t taxing until next dance and provide “some” form of sustain.
Seems like the opposite of that to me. Outlaw can maintain 100% uptime on feint, sub cannot. Sub needs to pick and choose where it would put its uptime, and that would almost certainly be stacking with all your other stacking buffs (symbols, dance, shadowblades etc) for maximum ampage on dance windows.
legion was 8 years ago
and i’ve been here for almost 20, so what? Legion is what can basically be considered “modern WoW”.
Everything i said is true. Vanish was not always a DPS cooldown. It was utility and defensive before it was offensive.
arguebly vanish was also a offensive cd before legion. but honestly? modern wow became the wow majority of the playerbase is accustomed to or joined. wow is 20 years old. thast 12 years of classic wow vs 8 years of modern wow and growing. after the world soul saga modern wow will be officially older than classic wow.
idk what to tell you, its been 8 years since rogue as a whole was changed and there is no indication t hat it will ever go back to the way it was. this includes vanish being a offensive cd for outlaw and sub. if you didnt really adapt to it after 8 years then frankly 
you can post your feedback if you want but i dont think its effectively healthy for the spec or the game in general to remove small burst windows from a sustain class or more burst from a burst class (which mind you people fought to make sub into. but yes i do agree shadowdust should be toned down)
Deleted. Thats the word you were searching for, Shadowdust should be deleted.
Agreed however speaking from a Subtlety pov having something to do outside of dance is nice. Shadowdust was added in to be akin like preparation in a much lighter way which isn’t bad and I do dig that coming back after years of no prepration that was very much Subtlety like to anyone who has been familiar to our ways over the years.
Having something to have some sort of impact instead of dance donkey is good. The over obsession with dance since legion isn’t cool regardless of certain groups of individuals may suggest.
Fazed / Unseen blade is definitely revisiting hemorrhage which has been brought up quite a few times and it is a welcomed sight. Of course UB / Fazed is going to be used in dance and blades yadda yadda my man. The point is having “something” out of dance to hold us Subtlety rogues over. Outlaw just discovered dance, I’m not speaking on you guys behalf to clarify.
Convince them to provide more stuff from the past then sure, until then the anti shadow dust on a specialization that is heavily reliant on cds doesn’t hold weight. Other burst specializations also have access to CDR, you don’t hear them throwing a fit about it.
If core abilities had more weight instead of “get back to dance” asap as the goal then yeah it wouldn’t be needed but for now it stays unless those that can change it choose to do so.
We are reliant on dance, symbols of death, shadowblades, flagellation and whatever cds a rogue chooses to use at their disposal. Damage isn’t going to magically match that out of nowhere with dance alone as that just feeds the legion style nonsense that put subtlety in the weird spot anyway. Since it’s forbidden Subtlety does anything meaningful out of cds dust was added to aid with that issue. Preparation was good and dust being a light version of that is fine but jamming more dance / more cd / more x without a solid foundational support in between dances just flat-out stinks.
Cata / Wod had it right with sanguinary vein (people griped about it to overload dance isntead when you only needed hemorrhage / rupture or garrote to activate and maintain it) and hopefully a return to that regard is the plan moving forward. A cool down isn’t impactful if it is too frequent. In the update for rogues Dance has more emphasis and shadowblades became a proper cool down finally. Doing jack didly squat outside of those leaves the kit wanting for sure though.
Well with unfair advantage you could theoretically unstealth if it procs.
But is more common with Evasion/Riposte which is why you create a cancel macro before you stealth/vanish to avoid the extra attack procs.
The problem is that Unseen blade is triggered by being hit by an AoE attack with one of the talents too.
So yeah lots of testing involved to really figure out how this works.
Great post and you are a valued member of the WoW community.
+10000
Simultaneously while evading it can swing as well (Flickerstrike) but that’s not a huge deal. Glad they are working on neat stuff at least man. Also happy it’s not silly crazy stuff that heavily encourages people to talent 1 way as well. I’m thankful for the more “this works for everything”. Hopefully more non dance related stuff as we have discussed many times about in beta. Yes rogues focus on stealth (Ex: Sneak Attack damage and other cool things from DnD for reference) but we are at a point where rogues get taxed on it and that is getting exhausting.
Warriors gaining 5 sec shockwave, and Warlock felguard stun is 5s is cool for them and such but if a rogue does it, it’s forbidden magicks and sorcery or something. Fear effects pretty much are stuns at this point (which is fine) but the warlock or warrior isn’t penalized on that with cc tax to damage (observation).
Well Kidney Shot is 5 seconds now in PVP and frankly it can be dodged or parried. With the Trickster Rogue does it mean Kidney Shot can not be parried anymore?
I guess that is a buff to Kidney Shot but still is inferior than Cheap Shot.
This is the same issue as having movement for DH having them dash to keep a dps buff is just as bad as this.
Hey bud,
I don’t disagree with the overall reasoning. However, asking for Shadowdust to go of course doesn’t mean ‘just remove it and call it a day’, Sub needs work, I think thats a fair statement.
Thing is, burst specs don’t NEED CDR to work, hell, Sin works without it. Just slapping CDR on Vanish wasn’t a solution, it just made Sub dependant on it.
All in all thought I think we both agree on the overall need for Sub to change and to be able to breathe a bit, and provide actual fun gameplay and options, instead of simply piling up complexity and bloating its rotation (like Trickster would do)
i will slit my own throat before i press feint as a dps CD
and jesus christ , “fazed”
another debuff
“oh no the trickster fazed me. oh no”
even the sound of it holy hell
Yeah, it sounds like a stabbing in the butt xD
Thematically, Outlaw/Sub hitting you with 2h or with more bleeds or toxins would be more “tricky” than hit with another shadow noodle.
The thing is other burst specs continue to deal damage out of cds.
Evoker disintegrate comes to mind where they were noted to lack kill pressure outside of cool downs. Retribution was also stated to be in a similar manner before their rework. Assassination has the highest potential burst once things are sunk in however not limited to shadow dance and nothing else. Certain groups advocate for it and its not cool. There are other burst oriented classes that also extend their major CDs , get CDR on them or other abilities, or proc them. Instead of that ferris wheel of nonsense they reintroduced preparation in the form of shadowdust and that isn’t a bad thing as preparation was requested for a long time but certain individuals gripe about having another button so vanish was chosen instead (preparation is also too long of a cd at 5 minutes to make useful in today’s world where every class is bigger faster and stronger than they used to be). The camp chanting “no shadowdust” doesn’t understand that “dance or nothin” isn’t healthy or fun and so they gave Subtlety some unique tools. Can’t have SV because of certain groups wanting to rat pack dance full of everything, can’t have garrote again because that’s too close to assassination and such yadda yada but it’s fine Subtlety has been giving tools away for a very long time to the others (not a complain but an observation) but didn’t receive any of it’s old kit back due to overloading dance.
Back to the discussion of trickster,
Its moving in a good direction though while probably not ideal for feint, it has some good stuff. If being able to reliably get Unseen blade / fazed up with a decent up time … it may help smooth that terrible lows that have plagued subtlety since SV went away. I’m cool with the “kiss curse” of feint but would need to play with it more I guess and that is probably the direction which is coolio. A conscious decision to use for defense or for offense and I’m fine with that as long as things are rewarding as the tree does promote.
Coup De Grace is solid and offers a deterministic emphasis on a fat eviscerate / black powder / dispatch which is great and should be straight forward in getting to
(more thoughts later - gotta get to class)
Vanish has been around a lot longer than Legion. It wasn’t always a significant dps cooldown and was a lot more valuable as defensive/cheese.
I believe it was the introduction of Master Assassin that turned Vanish into a DPS cool down. Which isn’t the same as an offensive CD, ie setting up a stun lock.
vanished plenty back in the day to garrote a target or fat ambush into eviscerate. Vanish has been a tool to use as the rogue sees fit but I do understand what you mean dude.