Using distract won’t be about distracting, it will just be adding a rotational CD to extend Fazed.
More I think about it more I hate this tree. Theres no feeling from it, it buffs generators on one and a finisher on the other, it doesnt know what its trying to be or evoke and just bloats the whole rogue rotations.
I tried to be positive about certain things but, tbh at this point, go back with this to the drawing board, same as Oracle.
Keep some of the interesting things like the tricks choice node, but the main idea of the tree should evoke a theme, something.
Most of the tree announced alongside this one are pretty banger, so keep up the good work, hope Trickster gets revisited.
Can you put this topic on EU rogue forum as well?
This all fazed debuff seems fun on paper, feint as offensive ability - sick!, Coup de Grace - not earth shaking, but bonus dmg always nice, but for something called “hero talent” I was hoping more meaningful nodes, for example 2 one handed wapons for Sub and “tricky” talents go around that, unique bonuses for Outlaw for carrying swords/maces/fists/daggers/axes and all other talents go around that, or give Outlaw 2-hander (!), or focus more on ranged abilities, don’t make another “borrowed” power or another “shadowy” ability for Sub to press. For me hero talents would make a spec super unique for a first sight. Go wild a little!
When you would do that, in game chat would go like: “Oh, you saw that Sub rogue with these fists weapons? Trickster for sure!” “Oh, you saw hat Outlaw with TWO daggers (or 2h!)?? Who would see that novadays?? That must be a Trickster!”.
Having to press defensives like feint actively to maintain dps can result in button bloat, I don’t mind that vanish has become more prominent in the dps rotation with how easily it refreshes. Designing these hero talents in itself will be hard, how can you make something passive enough where you’re avoiding button bloat without making it feel boring as if nothing has changed?
Personally, when it comes to these hero trees, I’d prefer visual representation of these passives, rather than adding more buttons to push
I agree with this, hero talents should shake up a character aesthetically, make a character stand out as an individuality, for instance a sub rogue using a 2h sword that looks like a katana would be neat, when it comes down to it, we as players want to branch out our characters in ways they were previously locked out of.
For instance back in WoD, warriors using the Gladiator stance and being a dps was a really neat thing, why couldn’t a warrior or even a paladin be dps with sword-n-board, it’d shake up the character visually and make them stand out
You are correct. I ran over to some dummies and it worked just fine. So I flew down to a pack of murlocs and tried it an no, it would not let me cast Distract, that would need a fix.
Feint is going to be nerfed to justify it as a DPS gain.
I mean is this where this is going?
First off: to whoever is doing these redesigns, I apologize for whatever I did to you on my two mains, Holy Priest and Outlaw Rogue. Because there seems to be a pattern here: good theme, really bad mechanics.
I like the trickster aesthetic, it works. Trying to get Killing Spree used again is wonderful, one hour Tricks is great, and bonus meme points for Don’t Be Suspicious.
But honestly, it’s off the mark. My feedback is all from the Outlaw perspective,and meant constructively.
Feint as a rotational ability is not good, because it will always be on CD, and doesn’t actually add damage itself. Also, it moves yet another button up to active, instead of on demand. Not liking that at all.
Killing Spree is hard to justify taking, honestly. The damage is low for its CD, and it also prevents 3+ globals of damage from other sources.
Unseen Blade is nice actually, but I’d tie it to finishers, and have the payoff be adding a buff to your Killing Spree of both damage, and duration reduction. The gameplay loop would be loading up buff stacks to KS through your BtE windows, then firing off KS at the end for massive fast damage like a convoke, but angrier. I think that would be a lot more entertaining than spamming feint and hoping stuff doesn’t die with the debuff on them.
Also, could we please have the dev who did Frostfire/Scalecommander/Sunfire trees? That one is amazing.
Yes understood however, distract will not trigger when targets are in combat.
Unless they change distract to bypass the original trigger, it will only be a pre pull effect (if distract cancels itself mechanically as it currently does).
If targets are out if combat
Functions the same as distracting charges i. Torghast. You couldn’t use the explosives to trigger because of how distract functions. It doesn’t matter what the tooltip says unless they decide to add in other hooks but isn’t likely to happen (not a complaint, an observation)
It doesn’t really have anything going for it thematically. In the lore a trickster would be something like faeries in wow. They do things like,
…use song to soothe the pain of rejuvenating nature spirits or to lure in lesser creatures to grind into poultices. They used to bind and seal curses by the spriggans all the time, keeping an archive of curses at the Grove of Memory. Faeries are able to see secret things hidden in the world, and are able to grant others the ability to do so through moonsight.
and I don’t see anything in this tree even vaguely related. So I dislike it based only on that observation. (The info is from warcraft.wiki. gg but I can’t link it here.)
There also isn’t anything related to tricksters in broader mythologies (that you guys steal from all the time). Like I’m not lying to anyone or changing my shape or outsmarting anyone. Let me summon an illusion that distracts someone while I stab them or something.
You could maybe tie in interactions with pick pocket, and pick lock (like you’ve done with Cloud Cover via Distract) that would make it function more like a trickster.
Mechanically:
I’d agree with others that our best defensive CD shouldn’t be used constantly for an offensive purpose but, the Feint interaction could be fine if we only need to use it in the opener. So it would depend on uptime that Thousand Cuts gives. (Feint is probably the best defensive raid cd in the game and a lot of rogues survivability comes from having it.)
Flickerstrike could lead to some super toxic behaviours (Pain Sup me bro so I can eat this aoe) but that will depend on how it’s balanced against Thousand Cuts.
So Tricky is not useful.
Cloud Cover is probably going to be an autopass in PvE since it’s stacked against a DPS upgrade choice and you can just Feint to push out the dps buff on a pack of mobs. If it blocks vision it might be crazy OP in PvP.
Also wondering if there is a trigger / flag for unseen blade needing a target.
If you’re running around cover in pvp and use feint - will you goof up your restealth / combat timers using feint with no target selected because of the slashing enemies around us for. Hopefully we don’t “bladeflurry” when we are trying to get a DRand hide. Cross that bridge when we get there I guess.
Adding my voice to the chorus of those who absolutely despise the thought of Feint becoming an offensive ability to weave into an already over-complicated rotation. Others have said it best already, so I won’t beat the dead horse of those details again. I do truly hope this design choice is re-evaluated the way that one priest tree that used to focus on Power Infusion was before things are set in stone.
Blizz deleted my previous post. (sub expired, forgot to add new card number). But i think ill cancel anyway. I barely play my rogue as it is now, a character that i have over two years /played since vanilla on this toon alone.
Turning Feint into a rotational ability is a terrible terrible idea. and Distract, an even bigger joke. Whats next, Swirly ball as a maintenance buff? You must pick pocket the mob during Shadow Dance for a proc?
This dev is a one trick pony, turning Utility/defensives into Cooldowns/rotation. It leads to further bloat and complexity. (more weak auras, more nonsense to track, more micro management, even more unforgiving rotations where if you make one mistake and fat finger the wrong button, everything falls apart)
Before you start with vanish, just stop. Vanish started as an aggro dump (utility). It was not a DPS cooldown, later it became a way to avoid certain mechanics (defensive). The DPS gain in vanishing for an extra ambush back in the day was negligible. Vanish as a DPS cooldown is a recent thing as far as the long history of WoW is concerned. It did not make or break a rotation the way it does now.
I honestly believed these Hero trees were going to be passives and things that enhanced abilities we already use in standard gameplay. Things like our shadow clone from the set bonus, that is cool and thematic, and it just happens. Not add more nonsense to what is already difficult and arguably bloated (looking at you outlaw) class to play well.
I get it, this is less than alpha. But if bloat and increased micromanagement is all i have to look forward to, i wont join the War Within.
Pressing feint occasionally is fine, but having to constantly press it means I have to move it somewhere else, which I already don’t have space for. With 2 active trinkets I had to resort to a sequence macro to use them, and ghostly strike had to be bound to an existing macro. On top of that we will also get killing spree while I don’t have any buttons to use as it is.
Yes, having to track 3 more things is dumb af considering how many things we already have to track on outlaw, but having more buttons that I can’t bind is even worse.
One thing I notice is that, as expected, there are a ton more outlaw players chiming in.
Hello my outlaw friends! I don’t play it myself, so I’m happy you all are commenting.
I used to play sub all the time, I was turned off by it gradually, I really hate having to play shadowdust, I find that extremely unfun. The number of sub players is only driven by their current tuning in the raid (quite a few middle of the pack specs have more parses than sub, even) they have low presence in the m+ scene.
All this long preamble to say; trickster adds a ton of bloat to a spec that is already extremely busy. Some people like that complexity, respect to them, but it drives so many players away at the end of the day.
I just felt like adding my full perspective and context on what makes me further dislike Trickster as it is; I have very little concept of how it impact outlaw, I just know that sub becomes less accessible with every patch, lately, and if Trickster doesn’t change, if they don’t get reworked in some way (aka remove shadowdust), then Deathstalker is the only remaining hope.
For me at least, these are my opinions, always happy to discuss!
Edit; also if that’s the direction they keep going with it, I’ll have to admit the spec isn’t for me anymore. And well that’d bittersweet but, it happens.
And are you aware that during beta and Rework stages weeks of Rogue feedback here was worthless and ignored because it had only been responded to on the Discord meaning everyone here wasted all their time??? Right???
please dont spread misinfo
vanish was always a dps cd for outlaw since its inception in legion
thats also not true, people were responded to on the forums as well. again alot of the rogue rework features we have now came from forum feedback. besides more places to get feedback is better than one thats poor moderated and often gets derailed by people who spread misinfo or frankly become rude or vile
I’m right there with you. I’ve played this rogue for a really long time (/played = 949 days). I used to enjoy Assassination for its simplicity. Not so much these days. Used to be I could use a simple rotation and toss in some utility and have a blast running dungeons, raiding and pvp. These days, I don’t think I could play without using a rotation helper.
Here’s my biggest gripe. When I’m raiding with 10 other dps, I’m expected to do 10% of the damage. Why do I need to juggle 14 different abilities while monitoring a dozen buff and debuffs.
We’ve already had two of utilities (Shiv and Thistle Tea) added to our dps rotations. I really don’t want any more buttons to manage. I want less and I’d like for them to be more impactful.
You have obviously not been following this trend as long as or as closely as I have and that’s ok.
Yeah man. Blizzard should find whoever runs these forums and ask them to step up their moderation game.
In the grand scheme of things, legion isnt that long ago.