Feedback: Trickster Rogue in The War Within

Classes Rogue
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  • A stacking mastery buff is fine and deterministic (good)

  • coup de grace is deterministic and makes evisc / dispatch slam (good)

  • fazed seems to proc decently from thousand cuts,

  • secret and killing spree have deterministic triggers (good)

  • smoke bomb has an active trigger (cool usage of distract as an option),

  • flawless form is pretty slick too in addition to the KS and ST talent

  • surprising strikes helping restore old key parts of subtlety and maintains the generators slamming for subtlety and outlaw (great and simple awesome talent doesn’t need some 5 step nonsense to appease the sim rangers)

  • They decided feint (which is a technique in fighting to feign blows in a tricky manner to be followed up with something else) . 2 feints had to pay the price at some point and while not popular sentiment, im fine with it as it isn’t likely to change much. They likely weren’t adding hemorrhage back and this was a compromise without adding another button and having more people gripe in here.

  • Not sure what the community is asking for as there is a lot of “i dont like it because feint but i dont want another button, but i also want something silly to be tuned around then get nerfed to accommodate for gimmicks that a certain discord likes to leave the base kit feel empty”.

  • Deathstalker is prob going to be similar but maybe something based off rupture as the common theme and offer a minor version of nights vengeance or something. Fatebound may also be cool with small impactful interactions to add up as a sum.

People here are forgetting

  • Hero talents aren’t meant to swing in favor of 1 spec or certain talents heavily and they shouldn’t either. Same goes for aspects of Subtlety such as the shadow clones, that isn’t going to fly as it is a Subtlety thing and we don’t need more buttons or goofy things to just blow up people/ places / things to only get nerfed on it (expected and non intended to be instigative )
  • ALL hero talents are adding in 10% total damage compared to live (interview with combat designers from deep dive). There is supposed to be something for everyone and as a design goal. (There is in this tree)

Closing thoughts:

  • This tree is a good middle ground without leaning too far into certain talents or restricting certain builds to be favorable of others and locking us out of preferred builds.

  • There is something for everyone that addresses multiple aspects and is a refreshing look instead of us being forced into very limited playstyles and game play.

-**We are at a HEAVY saturation point of CD reliance where rogue has to go back to more from the past in all iterations of the future. This dnd inspiration is cool without being a giant shining fishing lure like some people’s transmogs.

  • not the end of the world for feint, its a
    15sec recharge and both outlaw and subtlety can have it pretty dang quick. We traded defense here but that’s not the only trigger so its not bad. People forget long ago we shadowstepped for a 20% buff and praised the heck out of that but are so against this. Think for yourselves, don’t listen to influencing mongrels that push their own agendas. There is a whole other tree for Outlaw and Subtlety that has a different emphasis with different toys and aspects.
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I am all for you sharing your opinions, all the power to you. But everyone else did the same, nobody forgot any of that, despite you repeating that couple times.

You don’t think it’s bad, me and others think it is. And that’s ok.

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I have seen bits and pieces of alpha footage but nothing in a complete sense so I can’t really make out how the entire trickster package is supposed to work.

:surfing_woman: :man_surfing:

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if they aren’t “supposed to favor certain talents heavily” why does one of them require outlaw to take a very specific capstone-level talent to function at all? (you’re also more-or-less required to take float like a butterfly too, but you were probably going to do that anyway… still, ‘certain talents’ are certainly favored.)

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Issue I see:

Feint is a reactive skill, but it’s being set up to be used as a proactive skill.

Unless we get like 6 charges with a fast cool down, Unseen Blade seems off atm

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Now that I’ve taken some time to play outlaw and look at this again…

  1. I dislike that multiple talents on this boost killing spree and do nothing else. I don’t want to take killing spree.

  2. Is ‘distracted’ the same thing as ‘fazed’? Or is distracted a debuff applied by Distract? I wouldn’t mind using distract in combat but outlaw already has serious button bloat issues.

  3. Feint being a rotational ability will kill its reactionary defensive usefulness. I very much dislike offense being tied to defensive abilities. We already have this issue with vanish.

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Feint activating the unseen blade doesn’t work in the alpha, they added an animation of the warrior’s rampage in the coup de grace. Honestly, it seems like Hero Talent is pretty lazy. besides we don’t have a word about rogue, nor the other hero talents, it seems like they don’t even know what to do

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… its always been a proactive skill.

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personally, I don’t mind feint doing a bit of damage, I use it proactively already. I honestly try my hardest to keep feint rolling as is, so a little more damage coming off that, I am game.
as long as distract is off the gbc, I see no problems there either, just macro it @cursor to the abilities you want to use it on. I mean it’s already a button we push, if it’s on gbc then we have to push it more, I will grow an extra finger, it is what it is.
I can’t wait to see the rogue changes in general though. we know the tree is changing since they’re hyping killing spree so much, I assume it will become baseline with a talent that makes it immune to cc (hopefully).

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What I mean is you are reacting to DMG that’s incoming, no reason to use it if there’s no threat, so, what is feint now, defense, offensive rotation???

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After testing in alpha a little bit today I dig what they are shooting for as it definitely feels like marrying the past in an interactive way while also still thinking.

Mind you I haven’t unlocked the full tree and fazed doesn’t proc on feint yet (work in progress) as im focusing on the mechanical aspect and looking for bugs primarily. UPDATE EDIT: please see post below for a full picture as things changed and felt really smooth with the fixes the developers pushed out in a hotfix/ build that went in effect on Friday night.

Surprising Strikes

  • Each time a target is fazed they take a decent increased hit to generators and the uptime is moderate to where this feels awesome coming from a dude who really digs gloomblade / shadow strikes and remembers the days that backstab was impactful as it rightfully should be again.
    Core abilities and special attacks such as sepsis / goremaw’s bite / reprimand etc are ALL covered instead of alienating core abilities. Its a big deal as Subtlety has needed to close the gap a nudge in this direction ever since [Sanguinary Vein] was taken out. Subtlety always had good backstab damage when no dance was available and many can agree has been a lost art as an option. Im very thankful for perforated veins + Gloomblade + Lingering Shadow and along with this to recapture some of that as a play style preference which this tree does well while waiting for dance.

Cloud Cover

  • while enemies are within the smoke bomb fazed activates and the smoke is a pretty good sized radius vs pvp smoke bomb (doesn’t cause LOS like pvp as intended obviously so it checks out).
  • it can be used while a target is in combat as the trigger and is definitely really useful and highly appreciated a version of smoke bomb came back to all content while also not trivializing encounters or unintended interactions. (I really dig that talent)

No Scruples

  • definitely a solid competitive pick for that 10% on finishers to slam and reminds me of the old pvp legion talent for us subtlety rogues or new master assassin for our venomous brethren. The choice node feels that fazed is up decently through different triggers to where it doesn’t feel unreliable.
  • auto attack thousand cuts procs decently with slice up, feint (when working) guarantees the interaction, and secret technique also guaranteeing it feels good.

Flawless Form

  • the mastery buff and depending how you are engaging in combat rolling over stacks feels deterministic and rewards planning while emphasizing a good amount of finisher damage while not having to rely on the rng nature of fishing for crits with flagellation however paired with [No scruples] felt like a cool interaction with just enough kick to be noticeable.

Flickerstrike

  • grants 5.9% mastery per stack (feels solid)
  • Is cool in fighting enemies with splash/ multi target / aoe atks and works kinda like old riposte where we can refresh fazed and get in another hit due to [unseen blade].
    Ex: warlock pets fel storming about or moonkin fury of elune or elites in the area with cleave. Evasion popping people in the snout also is cool where you’re generating two cb pts , dealing a small hit (probably will be really solid with outlaw’s main gauche doing some slick cumulative damage - wouldn’t know though as I am not an Outlaw rogue so hopefully more pvpers who focus on outlaw get in to test that and offer their valued expertise on that in a mature and constructive manner).

Nimble Flurry

  • is impactful especially when paired with our current kit and flawless form and No scruples however I really dig cloud cover as personal choice.

Don’t be Suspicious

  • leaning into the deceptive play and shaving off 12 seconds of blind is nothing to scoff at regarding Outlaw and Subtlety when thinking about trying to quickly blackjack an enemy to save a team mate in pve or pvp and I dig that. Additionally, while [Airborne Irritant] reduces duration of blind and the cd respectively, it can help in a mosh pit helping out allies in tight situations especially as the focus stated is for Ranked Blitz (up to the rogues discretion as they see fit and feels optional which is great)

Coup De Grace

  • it is a work in progress currently but the 40% is definitely a good deterministic interaction that feels when paired with examples above where us rogues can either plan or rush an enemy down and depending what is going in can get some good value out if it. I really dig that it is deterministic, fits all styles of our talent tree, and once again isn’t limiting x y z talents or play styles.

Side note: DFA (pvp talent for those who do not know as they are new to wow or our devious craft) has been buffed to 40% and hopefully stays that way as the 15% did not feel impactful and left the ability feeling more as a utility tool rather than a oh yeah boyyyyy ability in its past (please keep it at 40%).

  • No other pvp talents have been touched as of this time.

Conclusion and thoughts:

  • Trickster, despite the skepticism from various rogues and concerned valued members here who love rogue (Trickster does feels good instead of big memey nonsense).
  • We have a bunch of solid talents here that reward ALL STYLES of play instead if hyper fixating and limiting us to only x talents (big win)
  • this tree after playing it (need to test more in time respectively) feels like a call back to what made Subtlety and Combat (Outlaw) pop people hard with generators and making some solid finishers pull their weight. Its simple, its feeling very retro in a modern way that captures a planning yet aggressive when need be rogue. I really dig what is going in here and would encourage others to think for themselves, turn off external influences.

I really adore the whole package this brings as it emphasizes CORE ABILITIES and COOLDOWNS that are both impactful instead of leaving those out to dry.

Subtlety is more than shadow dance, this tree gives us some good options and accenting pieces to customize our kit further while drawing some cool inspiration from rogues in dnd (i dig it). Hopefully with adequate tuning, we will maintain flexibility and bridge the gap of the past in what made Subtlety distinct instead of excluding it. It feels like old hemo in a modern way where we are encouraged to think but still being able to do something out of dance. Which is what a lot of us lifetime long Subtlety rogues have been asking for ever since Legion started fixating too much into dance and trying to “1 shot” and being left to become a stun bot for team mates.

I understand this isn’t for “everyone” but the soul of Subtlety has to return and this captures it well. Deathstalker will probably be more of what others lean into but Im really digging this current design.

I apologize for the long letter but it is heartfelt as a rogue who only does rogue since I started back in TBC days right before ol Wrath came out. Keep it up devs, you’re honestly on fire.

Eridian of the Rotten

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Thank you for the feedback.

From what you have posted and what Nahj has shown thus far of alpha footage the fazed debuff procs at a decent clip so it doesn’t feel like you are fighting a mechanic. Rather the mechanic of fazed debuff is incorporated into Rogue’s kit.

I will say that Deathstalker will probably be closer to a hybrid of Sub/Assassinatin with an emphasis of stealth/bleeds if I was to make a prediction.

Fatebound is probably going to emphasize seal fate/RTB/RNG mechanics between Assassination and Outlaw.

:man_surfing: :surfing_woman:

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I have great hopes for the other talent trees.

Trickster needs a full change, back to 0, redesign that thing. But they have shown that they can make amazing trees across other classes, there are more good and great ones than straight up bad ones - and there is still hope that the bad ones will all get revisited and re-iterated.

Long live rogues, I hope the TWW changes will fix the biggest issues we have, and our hero talents end up being fun

We have so few abilities with animations that have a big “woaahh” factor, now’s the time

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Trickster: A love letter to the old ways in a very Modern Rogue

  • This is intended as feedback based off Alpha gameplay as a long time Subtlety rogue with the intent on how Trickster feels during various combat engagements, tools available aka utility, and a cumulative approach. (spoilers: the playstyle is fun, engaging, and requires thinking). It thematically fits and captures a Thief style play which I love and closes the gap a little bit akin to the old days while also creating interesting burst moments with Coup De Grace (capstone talent discussed).

  • This write up is so that people without alpha can visualize what is occurring and a sense of how it is playing out instead of unnecessary bashing. This write up also serves to thank the developers for working hard on making something rogues may enjoy based on this playstyle as a whole picture (seeing the forest versus looking at the trees).

  • I’m a very passionate and dedicated Subtlety rogue and I refuse to play anything else as this is all I have cared about since I started in late TBC / Early Wrath when I joined. I adore this tree as it marries the past with the present when you PLAY it instead of reading it. I encourage other rogues to look at it from an open mind instead of looking for silly gimmicks.

Terms and Keywords:

  • Unseen Blade = UB, Secret Technique = ST, Shadowdust = Prep, Killing Spree = KS, Fazed = F, Flicker Strike = [FS], Flawless Form = FF, Restless Blades = RB, Escalating Blade = EB, Float like a butterfly = [FB], Internal Cool Down = ICD, Player Vs Player = PVP, Player vs Enemy = PVE, Nimble Flurry = NF, Surprising Strikes = SS, Echoing Reprimand ER, Goremaw’s Bite= GB , Sepsis = S, Don’t Be Suspicious = DBS, So Tricky = SoT,

Unseen Blade [UB]

  • Primarily Feint activated instead of adding a new ability to our kit which would further pack Shadow Dance. Many others express how loading more into dance is not great and bridging the gap of the old days where Subtlety did some damage out of it instead of being completely reliant on Shadow Dance. I believe this along with the other triggers, does a solid job at accelerating interactions to get it to hit when you need it. Feint as others have spoken of, being a defensive primarily in the past and now with a offensive trigger at first glance seemed alright but after playing alpha feels completely fine. If anything, another trigger for UB could be added if the developers see that as necessary. After playing it a good bit, it felt easy to get rolling and Fazed offers different interactions which will be covered in a bit.

Unseen blade interactions triggers

  1. Feint (primary trigger)

  2. Thousand cuts/ Flickerstrike (secondary triggers)

**Unseen Blade [UB] interaction with Thousand Cuts talent [TC] vs Training Dummy (rough example for illustrative purposes) **

  • I saw anywhere of 3-4 triggers of UB without pressing feint due to TC. The trials were performed on a dummy just for data on TC. Assuming that FS behaves the same, a rogue can use at their discretion to trigger Feint for an initial stack and then 1 during an aoe event (depends on what all truly qualifies as an aoe attack that is listed) example being cleave attacks or attacks like shadowfury / Scorch and abilities that are multi target such as Fist of Fury or in pve with boss/ adds that do conical attacks to see if it registers (intended vs not intended) vs the Evasion aspect able to trigger from those events as well. Respectively, it still guarantees at least 1 trigger from either of those and will likely be tuned to perform accordingly. The table didn’t load correctly for accuracy but Mean = 7 PPM (3.5 ppm), 100 trials, Max = 11, Min = 6, Median = 7. This suggests it will reasonably proc during important events over time.

  • Fighting actual enemies saw similar interactions where usually UB procced within the first few blows without using Feint. Stacks felt appropriately gained through TS and work similarly but through defensive reactions through Feint duration taking a blow [FS], or dodging during [FS] (discussed below).

Fazed [F]

How Fazed works [F]

  • While UB is activated through one of the triggers, it will Faze the target and cause the rogue to deal 5% more damage. It feels as hemorrhage debuffing during Cataclysm (but with a 15 sec cd but with a 5% debuff) that was a great and interesting way to bring that back as Subtlety has been absolutely needing to marry the past with the present in more ways.

  • It effects ALL rogue damage which is great and allows for build flexibility with that in mind which is a big win. SS from Fazed and Mastery amps from UB feel good to gain. Waiting to get into our next big Shadow Dance feels impactful instead of dreadful as [SS] / [UB] / [FF] help bring up those dreadful lows which have plagued us since Legion packing it all into Shadow Dance.

  • Depending on how a person builds, amps through the specialization tree emphasize different strengths. The 5% helps bridge the gap a little and feels meaningful due to other talents also having supplemental effects which are solid.

Surprising Strikes [SS]

  • While Fazed is active, makes generators shine more akin to the past. It can provide some decent backstab / Gloomblade (GB) hits if a rogue chooses to talent into it (sorely missed and heavily talked about over the past few expansions among the forums). This has a lot of synergy with Sepsis, Goremaw’s Bite, and Echoing Reprimand concerning special attacks and packs a punch. I really appreciate this as Subtlety always historically had some mean backstabs and ambushes, with the multiple triggers it can help bridge the gap a little and have some meaningful damage through specific interactions with F/ CC/ FF. A lot of us really enjoy generators and this tree has something for everyone. Backstab/ Gloomblade, and Shadowstrike are valued tools and talents should reflect that moving forward which has been beautifully done in Dragon Flight and this tree accents that further in The War Within instead of encouraging very limited styles. (big win)

Devious Distractions

  • Simple and works well while emphasizing strong CDs (ST / KS) and accents NF and a rogue’s choice of other nodes to put the punch in those CDs even more or use that time to extend Fazed depending on how they want to operate. Nothing to sleep on where we need to see the full picture of how this all works well as it certainly does. This pairs well with Smoke / Mirrors for a small defense upgrade node while Fazed is active.

Flicker Strike [FS]

  • Upon activation of Feint or taking aoe damage while feint is active grants a second stack of EB (1x per 5 seconds during feint). Evasion grants 1 stack of EB with an ICD of 5 seconds (2 total possible to gain).

Thousand Cuts [TC] vs Flicker Strike [FS]

  • TC allows procs that occasionally occur (avg 3.5 per 30seconds) by auto attacks.

  • FC allows for 1 stack of EC if hit with an Area of Effect (AOE) attack or 2 stacks throughout the duration of Evasion.

  • [Prep] and [RB] are the main synergists when selecting this talent to help get a [CDG] up quickly along with the

  • [+] Both can serve as a bonus during skill shot windows where the rogue needs to be mindful of CDs and encourages resource management.

  • [+] great precise and quick feeling on the animation, deterministic way to build up a CDG hit,

  • If the rogue IS NOT careful of spacing will break CC in pvp / dungeons as it IS an attack. TC does not offer control, however, provides a risk vs reward.

  • The rogue will be limited to Feint when Evasion is down if not talented into TC. Feint activation as others have echoed in the Official Rogue forums have echoed a lot aren’t enthusiastic about using a primarily defense to turn into a tool for offense. After playing it on alpha, I can see that however we have 2 charges on a 15sec CD (good thing) with CDR for both specs where the rogue needs to maturely determine a space for using it if not talented into TC (Design Risk vs Reward presents itself).

  • The Risk: If spacing isn’t mindful in close encounters that a hard CC such as Cheap shot/ Kidney shot are the rogue’s tools where Gouge/Blind/Sap will break much like other things in pvp with the large amount of poor awareness others show usually for a rogue’s cc to make an opportune moment really count.

  • Reward: Additional stacks of [EB] sooner than anticipated can be prepared for and thoughtfully utilized for the next hard hitting [CDG].

  • I don’t personally have a problem with how things are as is as TC is obvious to be offensive use and FS is a reward for defensive use without allowing for things to be too frequent while having high impact when they do occur (CDG in mind).

  • The rogue needs to consider what can happen and whether they deem it necessary on the Risk vs Reward scale here. Either way, the rogue will deterministically build those stacks for the pay off during a burst moment while also allowing for higher fazed moments to bring the very poor lows as a Subtlety rogue up a little while waiting for our next Shadow Dance. (big win). Outlaw due to RB will have it more frequently depending on engagement per the natural ebb (good thing).

o Request: Possible additional trigger if the development team is willing to as they deem fair and balanced without creating a “1 shot” paradigm. CDG is at a good spot where 2 per burst cycle can occur.

o Both the choices have their place between [TC / FS] where it doesn’t “need” to change as it felt smooth where us rogues should consider risk vs reward and the gameplay associated. FS doesn’t feel behind TC and the triggers are different to encourage all talents and gameplay involved without scaling out of hand for EB interactions. I didn’t feel there was a problem with that and found it fun while positively challenging to figure out how I wanted to customize in my own style regarding specialization talents as a Subtlety rogue.

Flawless Form [FF]

Triggers of FF:

  • 1.Secret Technique / Killing Spree

  • 2.Unseen blade interactions

How FF works:

  • Grants stack of 4.9% mastery per ST/ KS used or per UB trigger. Stacks can overlap and refresh the duration. If the target id distracted by Fazed, then the rogue gains 5 more stacks when they use CDG. With some luck you can land at pretty good stacks and gain 30-40% mastery during that time. A simple talent while not being disruptive to the rogue’s choices and benefits ALL builds.

  • Having nimble flurry (NF) unlocked quickly provides ST and KS to have 10% increased damage, and more frequently due to both Subtlety and Outlaw maintain CDR on those key abilities also increases frequency of those attacks and Fazed debuff as well as the mastery hits. If a rogue chains together talents such as Cloud Cover + Elaborate Twirl (extends FF by 2 seconds for 7 seconds total) and uses feint, it gets pretty compounding and pays out strongly.

Cloud Cover [CC]

  • What it does: [CC] Creates a thick smoke screen similar to Smoke Bomb in the old days where it was usable in all combat. This talent does NOT act as an LOS interference like the Legion to Present pvp version of Smoke Bomb.

  • This is about a 12-yard range cover that causes all attacks you deal to any enemy within the cloud to apply Fazed [F]. The target takes 5% more damage from the rogue.

  • The talent feels good as you can swap in case of priority targets to accelerate the process for a rogue and gain further stacks of FF to increase the mastery further and deliver some nasty hits which feels good. The rogue has control over what they want to do. The 90 sec cd did not bother me at all and was fun to play around with as someone who uses distract every expansion for various reasons even in dungeons. (ex: stopping an incoming patrol before they add frustration to the keystone).

  • It replaces distract and can be used while a target is in combat unlike distract (It IS displayed in the tooltip of distract when talented). It’s a great talent that rewards the rogue for planning and adapting while bringing back beloved smoke bomb in a new way.

No Scruples [NS]

  • NS is pretty nasty when considering 10% critical strike chance and didn’t feel behind CC. This works well when you want on demand burst where previously in DF it felt rough sometimes when 1 part of Eviscerate crits and the shadow part doesn’t. Outlaw has an affinity for critical strike and friends tell me that they are pretty happy with that.

  • I enjoy this node as it is competitive while not making one superior over the other. I have a personal preference for CC but testing both has been a lot of fun for various reasons. Ex: More critical hits during a Shadow dance due to this being up versus CC providing me a way to forcefully activate fazed on multiple targets while not expending a charge of feint depending on the situation at hand (emphasized decision making of the rogue which I really like).

Don’t Be Suspicious vs So Tricky [DBS vs SoT)

  • SoT is nice for rogues that don’t often press Tricks of the Trade or for chain pulling and is still useful and not to be discounted.

  • DBS feels good as a decision-making tool where blind and cloak got a small but meaningful CDR to help accelerate things depending on what is needed. Good talents without serious impact that would alter or “cheese” things.

Coup De Grace

  • This talent is wicked, It has a very cool flurry of slashes that feel satisfying as the animation and the blow from it lives up to the name (a deathblow / mercy kill). It grants 5 stacks of FF as previously discussed and can be chained well with other abilities. While Death From Above has been missed, I actually really like this way more instead of losing control of my character with a delay. Definitely would like to see this ability stick as is instead of adding another button in the future. This ability is great that it evolves Eviscerate and Black Powder into a new attack instead of flooding us with more cool downs. We are able to build it steadily, no crazy mini game to play, the buff Escalating Blade (precursor to CDG as a requirement) builds at a moderate cadence and feels impactful while planning instead of another annoying “1 shot” focused talent where Subtlety often gets put in time out for. It is satisfying for Outlaw as it upgrades into a big Dispatch that is equally effective.

  • Side note: DFA was buffed to be a big hit again (40%) in this current alpha and it also feels like a satisfying hit instead of a way to avoid Crowd control effects.

Conclusion:

  • Trickster is fluid, fast, and lots of toys that wonderfully pull inspiration as an option from the past to create a modern style of old rogue exist in our world. We have control over a lot of what happens save a few concerns that were discussed while not being restrictive or limiting. While some may disagree with me, I really and truly heartfeltly enjoy this tree as a rogue who likes to combine all sources of damage instead of finishers only.

  • Generators feel impactful as someone who really loves the Gloomblade and Lingering Shadow route for big backstabs to hold me over until the next shadow dance. I really dig the crunch it throws on special attacks like Goremaw’s Bite and Sepsis as each tick did get harder and the final poison blast from Sepsis did considerably more damage due to talents like lethality and Surprising Strikes in addition to the new crit gems. It didn’t scale wildly out of control or feel at any point that some ridiculous interactions would occur. It encourages planning, precision, and turning the tide on enemies. I think the hero talent tree was well done and I have had a lot of fun slamming with it on alpha. I would like to encourage the community to think for themselves and unplug from number crunching for a moment as the developers said all the trees will be tightly tuned and they will be watching. The only suggestion I would request is a look at adding another trigger to Unseen Blade as the developers deem it fair and truly reasonable. This playstyle is quick, engaging, and impactful across the board. As a player who has been a rogue since I came into the game starting at the end of TBC / WOTLK and I do absolutely nothing else other than Subtlety it means a lot that all styles were thought of in this tree and all abilities get to shine instead of fixation upon one aspect of what has made Subtlety great over the years. Joining the past with the present in various small but weighted ways depending on how you build is a big win. Subtlety is more than just Shadow Dance. I really dig everything going on here and the current tools offered. Thank you and I look forward to further testing, I apologize if this was long but I wanted to illustrate how it feels and the cool interactions that were made. Definitely enjoyed this Hero talent tree and playstyle. (Moved from the other thread if it was supposed to be in here instead.)

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Cumulatively Trickster feels really solid on alpha from a game play perspective. I was skeptic about Feint as well but the other talents make it where it isn’t “needed” but is a bonus. The triggers are evenly spaced usually and sometimes the procs double trigger from thousand cuts but is evened out later. Some type of cadence is definitely set inside of it but unsure how it works but it plays really dang well.

  • No need for shiny ridiculous stuff as they aren’t look to alter game play and the hero trees are made to compliment styles instead of being destructive forcing X talents only to appease certain individuals. There is a lot of power in these talents when you actually play it instead of reading it. It’s fast and engaging with a thief playstyle.

  • Coup De Grace is very satisfying to use and has a really sick animation with this multi cut stabbing in a precise but intent to kill way and lives up to its name in French. I am really reallyyy digging it and wrote a big ol game play wise focused note as things will be balanced for reason and rationality but CDG did not feel ridiculous and neither do the other abilities. In tandem, it all flows really nicely and feels impactful. I would ask that the community unplug from streamers and think for themselves and wait until they actually play it and to stop expecting some silly gimmick to leech off of because that is how we ended up with BFA Azerite and Covenant stuff taking over our class instead of Core abilities pulling their weight to feel impactful. Trickster definitely delivers and all builds feel very fun to play on alpha but not “op” as the lesser creatures like to describe things. It is a guaranteed build up into a big fat deathblow that we can control (it isn’t bugged and is working well as a note). It definitely created a good punch for Subtlety and Outlaw outside of Secret Technique [ST] dependency as the only hard hitting finisher and put funk back into Eviscerate without making the rogue just spam the same ability over and over and over and over. It feels rewarding, engaging, and quick thinking.

Sidenote: Deathstalker is themed after Commander Belmont’s band of Assassins and should be pretty sick but people definitely need to let go of hehe 1 shot or rogues will be stuck in a repetitive nerf cycle. We were told by the devs they aren’t making overtuned single abilities that hijack the kit like ST did and they need to stick to that.

Fatebound is very dnd inspired and might revolve around crit interactions and other stuff. No Scruples is pretty sick in Trickster but Cloud Cover is definitely one of my favorites. The cumulative pay off definitely feels solid from all of this.

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Thank you for the detailed feedback.

Not surprising that Flicker Strike interacts that way but so did Akari so people will decide if they want to deal with that or not.

I think the most promising tool from Trickster would be Cloud Cover so you can put up phased debuff on multiple targets quickly.

Also the mastery from Flawless Form looks pretty decent and probably modeled from other similar interactions from the past (eg Night Fae mastery bonus from Sepsis).

:man_surfing: :surfing_woman:

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Thank you for adding in and being mature man. Cloud Cover and No Scruples felt fun to play with for sure. Im just really glad that it feels fluid. Mechanically it was great and It felt as I was in control instead of some silly hyperbeam proc or whatever. The mastery buff can get up to 8 stacks (highest ive seen is 13 but that was luck probably and temporary). Flawless form is up a decent but and fazed feels great like an updated hemorrhage and depending how you build did influence damage sources adequately (cumulative effect).

The community definitely needs to get off the devs behinds , design goal directly from blizz.

1.What to Expect from Hero Talents

“Each Hero Talent tree starts with a “keystone” talent that introduces the core mechanic and concept of the tree. This could be a new ability, an enhancement to an existing ability or cooldown, or a new buff you can trigger. The bottom talent of each tree is a “capstone” talent that builds on the core themes of the tree or adds new power to the keystone.”

“Each tree will offer or modify some class utility and include defensive bonuses that are useful to all specializations. We are aiming for all trees to be about equal in the amount of utility and defensiveness they provide. Trees for characters that can take on a tanking role may have some additional defense bonuses that will be less valuable to healers or damage dealers (DPS), such as bonuses to tank talents or cooldowns. Three or four nodes in each tree will be choice nodes where you can choose between two options.”

”Hero Talents are meant to add enough damage or healing throughput to be significant without being so important that these new talents overshadow your current class and spec tree talents. Most Hero Talent trees add new visual effects to classes, both to communicate what they’re doing and bring their class fantasies to life. However, these are not complete visual reworks – your class and spec are still the same at their core, and that will continue to come through.”

2.Maintaining Freedom to Choose

“We want players to be free to choose the Hero Talent tree that has the gameplay, visuals, or flavor that they prefer. Our goal is for both options to feel similarly effective in raid dungeons, Mythic+, and PvP. We’re working to avoid abilities or bonuses in Hero Talents that could make a certain tree feel “required” for activities where we can.

“We know that for some players, prioritizing total throughput is the most important thing to them, even if the difference between choices seems small. That’s okay but keeping Hero Talent balance close is one of our priorities so that players can play what they prefer and still be viable in any content.“

They checked all those boxes regardless of how people feel about things and are providing a balanced tree to COMPLEMENT your specialization’s tree instead of hijacking and making some silly nonsense. Stepping back and seeing the forest instead and arriving at your on conclusion without pushing personal agendas or streamer bias because its not some gimmicky nonsense. I was already digging trickster because of the creativity I was thinking of and the array of tools it offers but after playing it, its definitely my style all the way. Others will see that Deathstalker and Fatebound have completely different styles and themes and that is good but hijacking a class due to X is not what they are doing.

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Rogues have historically have had similar mechanics but I think the problem isn’t the hero talents alone it is the existing complexity which I think is the greater concern with Rogue players.

Personally speaking I am okay with Hero talents not being super powerful because it creates a vacuum when they are removed. That is the biggest complaint with rental systems and borrowed power. And to an extent how tier set bonuses work.

And I also agree that hero talents should not over shadow core class and spec fantasies.

But for some other classes their respective hero talents look like entire new identities and specs. But for now lets focus on Rogues.

Trickster like Night Fae was very intriguing in certain periods of time. At one point it was BIS and at one point it was considered niche.

The problem with Trickster isn’t if it works correctly more so how it feels to play? That is the bigger question. Objectively it seems to function properly which is a good sign but subjectively is it fun to play? For some people Akari from Legion was a turn off and this is why Trickster is not gong to be for everybody.

A good example is Sub secret tech or Outlaw Upperhanded Upppercut. They may sound good on paper but are they enjoyable to play? Mechanically they may work fine but is it a fun play style?

So that is the hardest part of being a WoW dev. Balancing mechanics and fun.

I hope they can make Trickster fun while mechanically it does not feel like you are fighting against the design of the hero class sub spec.

:man_surfing: :surfing_woman:

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It should have just been ghostly strike instead of using feint. Same principle and doesn’t utilize a defensive ability as an offensive. Even follows the feeling of “unseen blade”

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That is the problem with Feint as it is very binary. If it is a DPS gain you will use it and if it is not then what the point of Trickster?

:man_surfing: :surfing_woman:

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