Feedback: Pack Leader Hunter

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Nondriel-living-flame

the problem with this is that added 10 more levels worth of nodes to the previous trees completely throws balance out the window, as you have to factor in having 10 more talent points (5 in class and 5 in spec) to account for being spent at lower bracket windows, which would be an absolute balancing nightmare

It would be done during the transition between expansions. Obviously [any] major changes to existing trees would require some tuning and rebalancing of individual elements. Did anyone honestly expect anything different? I certainly didn’t say as much.

Your whole argument indicates that you don’t want them to ever make substantial changes to anything which has already been implemented, “because balance…”

That said, I wasn’t suggesting that they should opt to add more talents into the existing trees for us to pick more options for KC or Barbed Shot reset mechanics. Quite the opposite.

@Nondriel-living-flame

Is this different from most hero talent trees?

Probably not. I never said that this was the case, did I? Besides…

@Nondriel-living-flame

Personally, I think it fits very well with SV’s spec fantasy

Regardless of whether it’s being done to 1 or several trees, simply adding talents which do nothing but slightly increase the numerical output value of existing abilities, it does absolutely nothing for the intended fantasy/goal.

A talent which allows you to gain another KC reset mechanic, it’s no different to what the current BM tree is already about.

A talent which allows you to gain another Barbed Shot reset mechanic, it’s no different to what the current BM tree is already about.

A talent which adds base damage to Kill Command, again, it does nothing to further the overarching fantasy/goal.

And in particular, a talent which adds 25% more damage to Multi-Shot, same as the above. How does this even remotely fit with the intended fantasy? It’s not even a good fit, from a combat perspective. Talents which improve Multi-Shot are useless for BM. It’s only used to activate Beast Cleave.

@Arahgon-maiev

people really dont understand that the best trees shown so far are very very very very passive.

There’s a difference between the concept of passive talents, and other types of passive talents. A talent can be passive in design without it being simply, a numerical increase to the base damage of an existing ability.

I have nothing against passive talents, as long as they at least do something for the spec, other than the above.

[Celinamuna-area-52]

@Antaris-emerald-dream

much needed group utility

WoW doesn’t need more spec specific unique utility.

[Kirenaika-daggerspine]

Initially, when they revealed the names of the hero talent trees, I also assumed “Pack leader” could mean 1 of 2 things:

1. Either you have extra pets (then the pets would be “the pack”)
2. Or, you have group utility (other than the cringe hunter’s mark), hence your group, the buddies, are the “pack”, and you’d be giving the group something useful (on the level of maybe mage mass shield, not too ground-breaking)

But I wasn’t prepared for the “kill command - pet attack” combo

Sentinel is next - enhanced auto attack and arcane shot increases the damage of serpent sting!

[Nondriel-living-flame]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Your whole argument indicates that you don’t want them to ever make substantial changes to anything which has already been implemented, “because balance…”

that’s not what I said at all lol. I said stapling an extra row on to each tree (with what people asked for) is not sustainable nor a good idea, as that would mean you have to reinvent the wheel every 1.5 years to make it all work.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

simply adding talents which do nothing but slightly increase the numerical output value of existing abilities,

guess what? it also has great interaction with survival’s kit, so it seems like it’s a win for both gameplay and themes

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

I have nothing against passive talents, as long as they at least do something for the spec

but this is pack leader?

[Vaderbear-dalaran]

I’m glad Pack Leader does NOT involve summoning a bunch of pets. All of the dire beast summons we have now are just visual clutter.

If people are so hung up on the name “Pack Leader” meaning having more pets, then just change the name.

[Taigertraps-darkspear]

@Vaderbear-dalaran

If people are so hung up on the name “Pack Leader” meaning having more pets, then just change the name.

I mean… Blizz did say that names are temporary and can also be changed.

[Velryo-tichondrius]

@Riokaii-burning-blade

Beast of Opportunity is the only talent that I think fulfills the image of what people had in mind reading the name “Pack Leader”, Spawning more beasts is cool.

Hit it right on the head.

While I’m decently happy with pack leader, your comment is exactly what I had in mind when thinking of it. I love me some kill command but I really want them to go back to the drawing board and incorporate more pets into Pack Leader.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Nondriel-living-flame

I said stapling an extra row on to each tree (with what people asked for) is not sustainable nor a good idea, as that would mean you have to reinvent the wheel every 1.5 years to make it all work.

Not sure why you felt the need to say that, as I wasn’t suggesting that this is what they should do.

@Nondriel-living-flame

guess what? it also has great interaction with survival’s kit, so it seems like it’s a win for both gameplay and themes

If it isn’t obvious by now, I’m talking about how it builds on the BM specialization.

@Nondriel-living-flame

but this is pack leader?

Yes. And Pack Leader was implemented as an extension to BM and SV, wasn’t it? To build onto those specs.

As to what you said further up, 7 out of the 11 offensive talents in the Pack Leader tree do nothing for gameplay, but are simply passive damage boosts to existing abilities, in one way or another. Of the remaining ones, it’s mostly just more of the same as what you find in the base spec tree itself.

From the official warcraft website, about Hero talent trees:

What to Expect from Hero Talents

Each Hero Talent tree starts with a “keystone” talent that introduces the core mechanic and concept of the tree. This could be a new ability, an enhancement to an existing ability or cooldown, or a new buff you can trigger. The bottom talent of each tree is a “capstone” talent that builds on the core themes of the tree or adds new power to the keystone.

So, with Pack Leader, the concept of the tree which they have “introduced” is Kill Command. How…exciting…

The capstone of the tree…it’s literally just more of the same.

I also find this part to be a bit odd:

There are 11 nodes in a Hero Talent tree. The first of these unlocks with the system at level 71, and you earn 1 talent point per level from level 71 to 80, so you get every talent in the tree by level 80. Hero Talents will have starter builds available, and your saved builds will save your Hero Talent choices as well.

So, if you will end up getting all talents at level 80, where’s the choice? How is a “build” a thing if you end up getting everything?

[Nondriel-living-flame]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Not sure why you felt the need to say that, as I wasn’t suggesting that this is what they should do

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

When the tree as a whole accomplish more or less the same things as parts of your main spec tree, what’s the point of even having it? I suppose it effectively allows you to “gain” something similar to more talent points, but that in itself could’ve been done within the actual main spec tree.

you did though, then you clarified that you meant every spec in the game should receive a major talent rework every 1.5 years, which is just as unrealistic; and then i clarified that stapling 2 more rows of talents on as a general suggestion is not realistic

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

So, if you will end up getting all talents at level 80, where’s the choice? How is a “build” a thing if you end up getting everything?

you have two hero trees to pick from. there are 3 choice nodes in the hero trees, and you have 31 class nodes and 30 spec nodes in your “builds”.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

As to what you said further up, 7 out of the 11 offensive talents in the Pack Leader tree do nothing for gameplay,

even with your less than generous and exclusive BM perspective, that’s more than most other hero trees lol

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

So, with Pack Leader, the concept of the tree which they have “introduced” is Kill Command.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? the core concept of the tree is the follow up attack your character makes after your pet uses kill command.

[Emowan-cenarion-circle]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

I also find this part to be a bit odd:

There are 11 nodes in a Hero Talent tree. The first of these unlocks with the system at level 71, and you earn 1 talent point per level from level 71 to 80, so you get every talent in the tree by level 80. Hero Talents will have starter builds available, and your saved builds will save your Hero Talent choices as well.

So, if you will end up getting all talents at level 80, where’s the choice? How is a “build” a thing if you end up getting everything?

Ditto.

The “build” stems just from the choice nodes, but we already see that some hero slates have more than others.

IMO the hero slates are not really that impressive yet as a concept as “talents”.
If so much of it is stuff we’re just gonna get anyway, why present it as a “talent” ?

Just let us select Pack Leader or whatever and BAM, apply the modifiers to our kit, and save us the time of the fake progression.

If they really want it to be a “build” with real choices, they need far more choice nodes.
and we shouldn’t be guaranteed to get all the nodes.

i like the additional power and mechanics i’m seeing. And I like the idea of choosing between sets of mechanics/power like pack leader and dark ranger, or Sanlyn and Deathbringer, or whatever, and having choice nodes withing each slate.

I’m just not impressed with the presentation and illusion of choice.

[Ogdenir-alleria (Ogdenir)]

With SV and BM having KC almost complete off cooldown. It be helpful to have a talent that lowers the cooldown on BW/CA every time KC is used. There both one of BM/SV big dps boosts.

[Verden-draenor]

PACK LEADER LEVERAGING PET “BASIC ATTACK”

1. A pet’s basic attack costs 25 Focus to deal “X” damage.
2. A pet’s basic attack costs 50 Focus to deal “X * 2” damage above 50 Focus.
3. With so many Pack Leader abilities playing into how much damage an individual “Basic Attack” deals… are we going to have to micro-manage our pet’s basic attacks to ensure it’s only ever used when the pet has at least 50 Focus available?

This seems like bad design…

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Nondriel-living-flame

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Not sure why you felt the need to say that, as I wasn’t suggesting that this is what they should do

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

When the tree as a whole accomplish more or less the same things as parts of your main spec tree, what’s the point of even having it? I suppose it effectively allows you to “gain” something similar to more talent points, but that in itself could’ve been done within the actual main spec tree.

you did though

I generally avoid talking about reading comprehension, but here…I don’t know really. I specifically wrote that when they added the Pack Leader tree, the result of those talents would be akin to us simply gaining more talent points to spend in our regular spec tree, since it’s so similar in the effects it provides to that of so many talents, and essentially, the fundamental gameplay of Beast Mastery as a spec.

In other words, for Beast Mastery, the talents you get from Pack Leader amounts to more or less the same things as what you can already get from picking talents in the Beast Mastery tree itself.

Ironically, pretty much the only talent in the Pack Leader tree which provides something different to what is fundamental to BM already, that is the talent which adds 25% damage to Multi-Shot. That talent also happens to be the worst of the lot. And just to be clear, no, I’m not saying that the tree has to be substantially different in concept and theme. But when the tree in question, one the devs have said was implemented along with all the other ones to allow for us to build on class fantasy and further an additional choice of identity…when the outcome is the same as what it’s supposed to build upon, what is the point?

As for this:

@Nondriel-living-flame

then you clarified that you meant every spec in the game should receive a major talent rework every 1.5 years, which is just as unrealistic; and then i clarified that stapling 2 more rows of talents on as a general suggestion is not realistic

I really didn’t…

If you think that, I can only tell you to go back and read it again. Within the scope of our discussion, I have only ever talked about the effect of adding talent points to spend in the spec tree, how it would accomplish the same as what they’re doing with the Pack Leader tree so far, for BM at least. Not once did I say that they should add more talent nodes, certainly not every expansion.

@Nondriel-living-flame

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

@Nondriel-living-flame

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

So, if you will end up getting all talents at level 80, where’s the choice? How is a “build” a thing if you end up getting everything?

you have two hero trees to pick from.

Who’s really the one being deliberately obtuse here

@Nondriel-living-flame

there are 3 choice nodes in the hero trees

And that’s supposed to amount to a “build”? Sure…

@Nondriel-living-flame

and you have 31 class nodes and 30 spec nodes in your “builds”.

The official quote I mentioned was specifically suggesting that we should be able to make separate builds within the actual hero talent trees themselves, which won’t really be possible if we get enough talent points to pick all talents in the tree we opt for.

@Nondriel-living-flame

even with your less than generous and exclusive BM perspective, that’s more than most other hero trees lol

Okay…and?

@Nondriel-living-flame

Are you being obtuse on purpose? the core concept of the tree is the follow up attack your character makes after your pet uses kill command.

The general theme and focus of the tree certainly isn’t about said follow up attack, no. It’s about empowering Kill Command, Barbed Shot, and pet Basic Attacks in various ways. You have a select few other talents sprinkled in there, but those don’t really change anything worth mentioning. In short, nothing you can get from the Pack Leader tree allows you to make a distinction between a regular Beast Master, and a Pack Leader-Beast Master. It’s just more of the same.

[Nondriel-living-flame]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

The general theme and focus of the tree certainly isn’t about said follow up attack, no

I suggest you read the hero tree again because the keystone talent is your kill command making you follow up with an attack, and that follow up attack causes your pet to attack. Am I misunderstanding what you’re saying?

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Okay…and?

I’m just saying I think you aren’t understanding the goal of hero trees?

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

And that’s supposed to amount to a “build”? Sure…

you cut off the rest of my message on purpose? 1 hero tree, 1 class tree, 1 spec tree is a lot of different combinations

---

don’t get me wrong, pack leader bm is very plain, but that’s BM for you. maybe they’ll rework but, I doubt they’ll change one of the most played specs in the entire game

[Celinamuna-area-52]

@Verden-draenor

are we going to have to micro-manage our pet’s basic attacks to ensure it’s only ever used when the pet has at least 50 Focus available?

Realistically I don’t think that it’s an issue :

But also… people are complaining about it being too passive, so if you have to manage pet focus here’s the “engaging gameplay”

[Razanur-stormrage]

I think there is a huge missed opportunity here with Pack Leader. The goal of these hero talents shouldn’t be to focus on one of the two specs, but to combine them somehow instead. Like Frostfire mages are the perfect example of how it should be.

Since Beast Mastery is ranged and Survival is melee, Pack Leader should instead open up the option to play Beast Mastery as dual wield and Survival with a ranged weapon. Mechanically speaking, this is the true blending of the specs, like Frostfire.

Ideally, for BM it would turn Cobra Shot and Barbed Shot into melee abilities with names something like “Cobra Bite” and “Barbed Strike.” Survival would see abilities like Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite become ranged abilities like “Raptor Shot” and “Mongoose Shot.” Carve and Butchery could just turn into Multi-Shot and Barrage (stacking x2 if you have the talent). The interrupts would swap too.

[Nondriel-living-flame]

@Razanur-stormrage

Like Frostfire mages are the perfect example of how it should be.

I’m a bit confused here, as Frostfire mage doesn’t do anything beside adds some passive procs to both Fire and Frost. Pack Leader doesn’t “focus” on one of either BM or SV, it accentuates both spec’s identities with the whole “hunter attacking with their pet in a coordinated attack”

[Arahgon-maiev]

@Razanur-stormrage

I think there is a huge missed opportunity here with Pack Leader. The goal of these hero talents shouldn’t be to focus on one of the two specs, but to combine them somehow instead. Like Frostfire mages are the perfect example of how it should be.

Since Beast Mastery is ranged and Survival is melee, Pack Leader should instead open up the option to play Beast Mastery as dual wield and Survival with a ranged weapon. Mechanically speaking, this is the true blending of the specs, like Frostfire.

you say frost fire alot but you clearly havent looked into the tree or the spec of you think it “combines them both” beyond frostfire bolt replacing your filler

[Fiercestynne-stormreaver]

I agree with a lot of what people have said about how lack-luster this tree is. I was expecting to actually be a Pack Leader! You know…leading a Pack of animals. And how come we cant get anything cool like an ability thats called Maul and on like a 45 sec cooldown. And the ability does something like " your pets knock the target to the ground like a stun effect and you see your animals mauling the enemy or something like that. We should also be able to summon even more pets or even have a 3rd pet out at all times.

They should also make hunter pets actually be unique like back in the day. I remember going after certain pets because they had a faster attack speed. Or catching a crab because it had the move “Pin” to where ur enemy was rooted in place for 4 secs. Or like the scorpion that use to stack poison damage on you. Like how come they cant bring that stuff back for hunters. They are missing a huge opportunity with this class. We have nothing on Rider of the Apocalypse. Im begging them to scrap this whole tree and actually take their time and give us what we are asking for.

[Nondriel-living-flame]

rider is such a boring tree, I wish people would stop bringing it up as a good example xd