Feedback: Oracle in The War Within

Eleanor-hyjal · February 21, 2024, 4:11am

I have been thinking more about these hero specs or trees and I think blizzard is over designing and confusing the presentation of these trees and that simply changing the presentation to the players would make things much simpler more intuitive and allow for distilling the maximum fun and excitement out of the system. Currently these trees have the same lack of long term customisability of the dragonriding tree without the exploration element of tracking down the dragon glyphs.

First for most of these nodes there is no interesting choice to be made. You get everything on every node that is not an explicit choice node so why complixify the presentation to give the illusion of choice that only matters for the 2-3 days it takes to level from 70-80?

Scrap the current 3 prong tree in favour of a linear one where you climb one rung every time you level. Scatter the actual choice nodes into the vertical list as appropriate and have the non-choice nodes autofill as part of hitting that level. For me the confusion of the current design does not justify the very small boost in customization while leveling to 80.

e.g. you’re a disc priest and just opened up hero talents and you decide you want to be an Oracle so you hit the oracle button in your talent screen.

This opens a vertical list of powers with the character level besides it and the name of the power gained next to it. Mousing over shows what you gained, thus the player doesn’t need to do anything.

Level 70: Premonition

Level 71: Pre-emptive care

Level 72: Preventative measures

Level 73: Choice node! Waste no time vs Miraculous recovery

Level 74: Assured safety

Level 75: Choice node! Prompt deliverance vs Divine feathers

Level 76: Foreseen circumstances

Level 77: Choice node! Perfect Vision vs Versatile Divinations

Level 78: Grand Reveal

Level 79: Choice node: Divine providence vs Fatebender

Level 80: Clairvoyance

However when we look at it like this we realise that there is no interesting gameplay or choice in adding non-decision levelling events into the non choice levels so why not abandon the idea of gaining something every level and split all the passives powerups between the level 70 start node and the level 80 capstone.

This could give us: Oracle

Level 70: Premonition and all the small power increases of preventative measures, pre-emptive care, Foreseen circumstances, and assured safety as passive boosts for choosing oracle

Level 72: Choice node! Waste no time vs Miraculous recovery

Level 74: Choice node! Prompt deliverance vs Divine feathers

Level 76: Choice node! Perfect Vision vs Versatile Divinations

Level 78: Choice node: Divine providence vs Fatebender

Level 80: Clairvoyance and Grand Reveal as the reward for reaching level 80

I don’t know about you but this feels more exciting when levelling as every time I interact with the system something significant is happening rather than a simple “This ability slightly numerically better” all the gameplay changes in the spec are in the choice nodes anyway so lets get rid of the boring bits.

Yes I am aware that this now looks like a star craft tech tree or the D3 follower trees but that was still more engaging than filling in passive talents that I know I will get all of by level 80 just to satisfy some illusion of choice.

Aneurysm-nerzhul · February 21, 2024, 5:48am

So… if I’m reading this right, you don’t want to have to manually put a point into the talent tree every level? You want it to automatically grant you “something” each time you level?

Sounds like the WoD perk system?

If that’s what you are indeed wanting, that is something blizzard actively wants to avoid.

It’s on record that players liked the old way of leveling in which each level you gain, you get a small bump in power in regards to a talent point to make yourself just a bit better.

But moving into Cataclysm, that point every level turned into every other level.

Then going into MoP it turned to be every 15 levels.

Eventually once classic wow came back around, players made it clear they really liked having something they can control in something like a talent point every level to add to their increasing power. This made leveling meaningful as you gained a talent point like its currency for leveling.

This is one of the many reasons they are adding these Hero Talent trees, to keep the feeling of getting something every level as we have gotten back in Dragonflight with both the Class and Spec talent trees.

Or did I misinterpret your post?

Eleanor-hyjal · February 21, 2024, 6:01am

What people wanted was more meaningful choice more often, not one choice every 15 levels. People also complained bitterly about the 2% more fireball damage talents that people couldn’t feel the impact of at the time of leveling. Most of the non choice nodes are very much in the 2% more fireball damage category power wise.

These ideas especially the second concept offers regular meaningful choices that can actually change gameplay every 2 levels from 70 - 80 while avoiding the non choices of simple minor power increases that mean nothing in moment to moment gameplay.

To me it meets the need for meaningful choice regularly AND avoids the spend a point as a meaningless point tax that makes the trees look cluttered, bloated and can cause anxiety for those that don’t realize they will get all the features by max level.

I would also suggest that if abilities look lackluster when put in a linear order like this that this is a function of bad talent/abilities and blizz needs to try harder.

My core issue is that the current 3 path tree makes the system look more complex than it is and I believe that this perceived complexity of 3 branches is not worth the cost given that once you hit 80 the only things that matter are the choice nodes as that is all you will interact with after the first 2-4 days of leveling.

Aneurysm-nerzhul · February 21, 2024, 6:16am

Okay now this reads as interesting.

What does “bloat” mean to you?

To me, “bloat” means having an active spell “button” you press that is competing with a near identical spell that accomplishes the same thing.

But this post reads like bloat is just more passive buffs?

If that’s the case, then we have different views on what “bloat” is.

But back to passive buffs like increase the damage of x by y type of talent, I agree those need to be replaced with something more interesting.

Every talent should strive to add a bit more gameplay change into your character.

Make something interact with a secondary stat like critical strike grants resource return or reduce cooldown or add second charge or grant an additional effect etc.

So I agree with making talents interesting, but I don’t agree that you should get them automatically and/or every other level if you don’t have too.

Eleanor-hyjal · February 21, 2024, 6:26am

I did add some more comments to my previous post you may have missed while replying that may help you understand my issue which is that the non choice nodes are classic “Illusion of choice” things as there is no decision to make and they are so weak that who cares what order you get them in.

As it currently stands you would be an idiot not to go down the right hand line first as that is where the bulk of the power and interesting choices are. Given that why not just put them all in a good order?

If getting “Something” each level is a core concern just make the player open the interface and click the next item in the list to activate it. But realistically how does that differ from a toast popping up saying "Congratulations on reaching level 73 your attonements now last one second longer.

I also suspect we would much prefer to add 5 points to both the existing class and spec trees over these “Hero” specs as you could get the same effect as hero specs by adding 2 non crossing columns to the bottom of the existing spec trees that give the actually ability changes coming in Oracle or Void-weaver or Archon.

On your question of bloat I consider bloat to be any spell or talent or action that does not involve making a meaningful choice. E.g. back in shadowlands Heal did the same thing as Flash heal so having both was bloat, likewise back in vanilla spending 5 talents to shave 0.1 seconds off the cast time of Fireball/Frostbolt/Heal was classic bloat.

Aneurysm-nerzhul · February 21, 2024, 6:42am

I get that issue with boring talents as I mentioned.

Yes if it’s boring, it feels meh to pick up if all it does it add extra damage.

That is why I think instead of just getting those automatically when you level, they just get replaced with something more interesting.

This issue with just adding more points to the existing trees is that you very quickly run the risk of introducing very overpowered and unbalanced combinations across the board.

It is very easy to just ignore going further down / across into the new talents offered and instead just put more points into what we have already to pick up combinations we couldn’t obtain before.

I have no faith in blizzard creating new talents in the existing trees that are both not seen as required while also attractive enough to prevent them being totally ignored and just pick up existing talent combinations that synergize so well it breaks the game.

With so many class and spec trees, you have so many potential cases popping up that it could easily force a total talent tree redesign or rebalancing in changing some talents and moving others.

That is a massive undertaking that doing these hero talents in a self contained area completely avoid while they can focus on power and balance within these mini talent trees without having to risk a total meltdown over anything crazy popping up from the existing talent trees.

You had similar issues when going into BC and Wrath and Cata. BC and Wrath they ended up adding a lot of good and interesting bottom level choices that kept most people to put more points into a tree. But some trees the bottom talent wasn’t all that exciting and as such, you can put more towards a dual spec of sorts and although fun, can create unintended balance issues.

In Cata, they forced you to put 31 points into a single tree before you can put more points into another tree.

That’s essentially what they are doing here.

We have these current talent point gate system to unlock each tier of top middle and bottom.

Now this is another unlock as you need to basically put all talents into your spec and class tree before this new row of talents becomes available. The only difference is that it’s all located in a separate window/tree instead of just tacked on at the bottom of each class and spec tree and gated.

Eleanor-hyjal · February 21, 2024, 6:45am

I wholeheartedly agree here and would love it if they did that.

My question is if they don’t, won’t, can’t do better talents and we are stuck with all the non choice passives then is it better to keep the current 3 tree design with illusion of choice or move to a more streamlined model?

Aneurysm-nerzhul · February 21, 2024, 6:49am

They demonstrated that at max level you can collapse the Hero Path talent tree to only show the choice nodes.

At max level, most people will most likely do this as there is no point in looking at a tree if you can’t change anything about it as it’s for the most part set in stone.

So yes it might be awkward a bit leveling and just picking a 1 of 3 choices for the most part each level but once you hit max level it doesn’t really matter.

So basically I think on this issue of “illusion of choice” is just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Selliane-stormrage · February 21, 2024, 6:49am

I mean all of that doesn’t address the more pressing issue that is; Oracle talents are horrible.

Doesn’t matter how it’s delivered to us, Premonition has to go, ideally with Twin Suns and pi as an external but that’s wishful thinking…

The mental gymnastics they are trying to get healing priests to do are the complete opposite of the hero talents stated goals and promises

Selliane-stormrage · February 21, 2024, 6:50am

This too, agreed. It’s not really going to be an issue, we will all be lvl 80 before too long and that’ll be that

Aneurysm-nerzhul · February 21, 2024, 7:07am

I think the core binding feature of premonition is horrible in concept and execution yes.

But there are some good ideas/aspects that I think should be given credit for.

This is a very good talent.

Miraculous Recovery: Reduces the cooldown of Power Word: Life by 3 seconds and allows it to be usable on targets below 50% health.

I particularly like the idea behind this…

Prompt Deliverance: Reduces the cooldown of Purify by 2 seconds

I like the idea of what this could lead into.

I like the idea that there is some design space for Dispel Magic, Purify and Mass Dispel where you could/should have these up more often and do more to make up for not having an interrupt.

Imo, not having an interrupt is bad for the purpose of your letting something happen that could be bad for you and your group. But let’s say that something bad is putting a nasty dot on your group. Well perhaps you can have access to Purify and Mass Dispel more often by reduce the cooldown of these quickly from normal gameplay that not only makes up for not having an interrupt but also having access to the ability to remove nasty things that perhaps you CANT interrupt and as such you need to out heal it or remove it quickly and only Oracle is capable of doing such a thing.

Also what if they design normal trash packs with a mob having divine shield or ice block on the regular and most groups have to just let the mob with that immunity run out naturally. But with Oracle you can Mass Dispel it and with my suggestion of reducing the cooldown of Mass Dispel each time you use Purify or through other methods, you can remove the immunity consistently which will speed up the run which more than makes up for not having an interrupt.

The only question is… will this both be a mechanic that Mass Dispel can come in handy for in the upcoming expansion(s) and will they grant Oracle this unique feature of having access to Mass Dispel more often? Who knows. But that is why I am both suggesting the added feature and bringing forth a plausible scenario that could catapult the desire to bring an Oracle for such a mechanic nullification spell such as this.

And just some things to ponder on…

In BRD, you got those dwarfs that have divine shield. So it’s not unheard of in fighting normal groups of mobs that have an immunity you have to contend with.

With the light/void crystal in TWW, you can easily see divine shield on mobs you have to deal with in dungeons.

What really need to happen is blizzard need to really introduce mechanics mobs use that put spell buffs on themselves and spell debuffs on enemies that are so nasty to ignore that it forces parties to really want to bring both offensive and defensive dispelling class/specs to overcome these hurdles. Instead of simply resorting to just give everything a cast time and assign an interrupt chain.

That is where clever dungeon mechanic design needs to take place in order to expand the pool of desired class/specs to bring that have an answer to said clever mechanic.

Selliane-stormrage · February 21, 2024, 7:18am

I think my issue with all that is that instead of giving healing priests stuff that would make baseline sense, such as an interrupt and a BR, it would have to be patched by a potential hero talent tree.

If PI is the reason, as it likely is, that we dont have basic defensive and utility abilities that would make sense for priest, I’d rather they fix the base class before patching it with a hero talent.

Outside from that, I’m all for bringing options to solve problems

Aneurysm-nerzhul · February 21, 2024, 7:26am

Absolutely agree 100%

I am very wary of these Hero Talent trees building on top of what I view as shaky and unstable foundation.

It will all implode on itself if the core structure is not solid and well defined.

I see many issues that should be addressed in some minor and some major ways with Shadow Tree specifically and as I mentioned multiple times before, Power Infusion needs to go. It needs to just be moved into Discipline only OR PI and Twins changes to different talent choices when your Holy and Shadow. Choices that are spec relevant to make it meaningful. I suggested Ascension for Holy so they can fly and then the twin’s replacement can extend flying to your group. With Shadow, bring back Spectral Guise and maybe that can extend to group with the twins replacement or as I suggested, make it an immunity so you can soak things more.

Be regardless, I would prefer they address the current talent trees that are problematic and I think we have many issues and problems with Class and Shadow trees (can’t say for Holy or Discipline) before we spend time crafting a hero talent tree that is a failure out of the gate as we see with Oracle because the base concept began from a flawed design.

Argentem-dalaran · February 21, 2024, 7:35am

If I am remembering Rift-archon correctly it was basically the gold standard of what support specs should be. Built that way from the ground up, not shoehorned in(don’t get me wrong, I like augvoker, but you can rather tell Blizz forgot how support specs work).

As far as this hero tree they are trying to call Oracle that has nothing to do with foresight in any way… I would trade the entire tree for Rift-Archon’s Flaring power, straight up, just one node. Have it replace PI entirely, and you get it at 75 or something.

Tuckbudford-frostmourne · February 21, 2024, 12:04pm

Premonition back in the other expansion for PVP was sick I loved it this on the other hand is complete Dogwater. I hate it and I think it might even have some potential in PVP along with archangel and dark archangel due to the stacking 1 minute CD’s I still hate it.

Pre-emptive measures is kind of Meh I agree we should be pressing POM but I don’t think this is enough to make it interesting or good for that matter of face atleast in PVP.

Pre-emptive care is boring I don’t care for it I just press renew to get shield back up and 1 second on atonement is that a joke.

Micaculous recovery is clearly the best talent . So good I will never chose the other option.

Assured safety is lame it’s esentially a round about way of saying we increased power word shield’s healing in a round about way.

Prompt deliverance is amazing cant wait for it in pvp the feather talent is lame don’t want to use it.

Forseen circumstances is good but 10% is lame people die in PVP through PS even when pressed on 100% all the time this talent is good but too low numbers. I also just out of principle dont want to play it why does PS suck so bad baseline.

Divine providence is terrible because I hate the premonition mechanic.

After reading all the rest of the talents there isn’t a single talent on the last 2 rows (4 talents) that I would play and be happy about it.

Frankly this is a fail 3/10 hopefully voidweaver is better.

Julehces-stormrage · February 22, 2024, 6:00pm

I have a few more thoughts.

What if the priest does not care for either Hero talent trees? Will it be possible to opt-out of hero talents altogether?

As a holy priest, it seems my choice will be either to give up PI (by selecting the Oracle tree) or perhaps not (by selecting the Archon tree). What ability if any will the Archon tree “replace” or force us to give up?

PI is located on the 5th row of the Priest talent tree and costs 1 point. If Premonition replaces PI does that mean the priest will be required to invest a point into PI in order to unlock the Oracle tree?

It does not seem the devs are honoring the following commitment:

“Hero Talents are meant to add enough damage or healing throughput to be significant without being so important that these new talents overshadow your current class and spec tree talents.”

If I have to invest 1 point into PI and then in order to be an Oracle I have to give up PI isn’t that the definition of overshadowing my talent?

Eleanor-hyjal · February 22, 2024, 6:42pm

Given that the current generic priest tree has no talents that are good fits for the concept of an archon I expect it to power up other choices on a “If shadow your shadowform gains X, if holy your guardian angel gains Y” model".

There is no good shared ability between holy/shadow so I expect the theme to be vague. I would have said use PI for Archon but they have already taken it for this abomination of a hero tree. This is yet more evidence that the idea of hero talents across 2 specs makes no sense in many class cases.

Aneurysm-nerzhul · February 22, 2024, 7:31pm

Either that or they merge similar spells to become a new spell.

Holy Fire / Mind Blast
Renew / Shadow Word: Pain
Power Word: Life (Should be Holy Word imo) / Shadow Word: Death
Holy Word: Sanctify / Shadow Crash
Prayer of Healing / Mind Sear (if returned)
Guardian Spirit / Dark Ascension
Holy Word: Chastise / Psychic Horror

Others? I can’t think of any other similar/opposite spells that make some semblance of sense.

I would say Smite / Mind Flay but I think that would make a better connection with Voidweaver for Discipline / Shadow.

Maybe add a bit to Spirit of Redemption and then grant Shadow the ability to become a Spirit/Ghost upon death to keep doing damage or whatever for 5 seconds after you die unchallenged and unable to be stopped except to out range them.

Vengeful Wraith
Become a Vengeful Wraith spirit upon death, allowing you to enact vengeance upon your enemies unimpeded for x duration. You are rooted to your location of death during this effect.

Maziodyne-malganis · February 22, 2024, 8:03pm

I presume it’ll be something playing off of Apotheosis and Dark Ascension. Though I kind of hope for them to veer into something more ridiculous like a Holy version of Shadowy Apparitions. Some truly Auspicious Spirits or Holy Ghosts if you will.

Either way, this PI abomination probably should have been the Shadow/Holy tree given how little Holy and Shadow actually overlap. Especially because canonically, outside of Velen, there’s a lot more prophecy tied to the Void, but I think it’s pretty clear why that didn’t happen given how neatly Shadow slots into mythic+ buff comps.

I’d probably feel differently if the current proposed tree did more to actually embody the flavor text of using foresight to protect allies, but so much of the tree as it stands is just filler talents that don’t build to a coherent whole.

Kaivax · February 22, 2024, 10:40pm

Thank you to everyone who provided feedback on the Oracle Hero Talent tree.

One of our goals in sharing these Hero Talent trees so early in the process was to give us adequate time to evaluate and change things as necessary. After reading your feedback, discussing the talent tree, and playtesting the concept internally, we’ve decided to revisit the Oracle tree, especially regarding its focus on replacing Power Infusion.

Thanks again!