Feedback: Mythic+

Community General Discussion
164

Feedback from a 1650+io Warlock main with a 385+ Boomkin, Mage, and Rogue alt all over 1100io. I’m speaking when it comes to +15 or higher keys when I say this. I do really enjoy M+ and think there were a lot of steps in the right direction with the dungeon designs.

  1. Not being able to reroll keys is very unenjoyable.

This is the biggest issue right now and it has so many residiual effects that I will reference down below.

In short, it’s made people pickier with their keys because good keys are way harder to come by. It’s also made missing a timer for whatever reason WAY more punishing. And with you always getting one key level lower in your cache than what you completed, it is increasingly more difficult and time consuming to get ahead.

It’s too punishing to miss a timer for your group with it dropping down a level to a completely random key, and the time investment trying to push up lower/dropped keys only to have it roll to another bad key that is basically an auto deplete feels like a massive waste of time.
If I need, say, a Freehold 17 for score but I get a King’s Rest 15 in my weekly cache on a tough week, I’ll have to downgrade the King’s Rest to be doable for most groups and then I’ll have to time 14, 15, AND 16 (which means I will have to luck out and get doable keys when they reroll) and THEN also hope the 16 turns into a 17 that I’d need?

Fishing for keys was a MASSIVELY POSITIVE CHANGE. Reverting it was a mistake.

What’s wrong with people deleting a key they have and rolling the dice by doing another dungeon (which gets them playing the game MORE) on whether or not they get a dungeon they want to do or not? You don’t like the fact that they’re increasing their chances to do a dungeon they want to do (which, AGAIN, gets them playing the game MORE)?

There are always going to be certain weeks with the changing affixes where dungeons are just too hard and not worth doing over others. Bad key RNG can single handidly ruin your push week if you play with a group. If you don’t play with a group, you have to be playing one of the meta classes in order to get into PuGs as people are now way pickier with their comps because not depleting is so important.

  1. The dungeon pacing is all over the place.

Look at the most enjoyable dungeons in the game like Freehold that everyone objectively tries to do each week for their key. It’s so much fun because there are different, unforced paths you can take. You can be creative with your route. It’s pretty fast and never feels drawn out. Wiping is never too punishing.

The % you gain isn’t linear like King’s Rest where you HAVE to go down specific Hallways and kill everything in your path (usually leading to too much %). The pulls can be big and fun, not too punishing - the mobs hit hard, but not too hard. There are casts that you have to interrupt, but not too many. If you die, your reset points are SO far away.

That style of dungeon is what got people to love M+ in Legion. But now, it seems like there are so many dungeons where there’s too much % but so little of it is skippable. There are too many hard hitting mobs in nearby packs, so you can’t pull big. The only way to skip certain packs is with a rogue (or an invis pot that puts other pots on a 10 min CD which is just not reasonable).

There should NEVER be a case where you are forced to take a path that gives you too much %, especially not if you can’t pull multiple packs together without tremendously high risk.

  1. If there are going to be skips, there should be enough ways to skip that you shouldn’t HAVE to bring a Rogue.

Another good example for Freehold - the mobs are spread out enough where you can skip pretty much anything, and NOT having a rogue doesn’t kill you.

If there were enough skips that are doable by simply walking around mobs without stealth, groups wouldn’t be pigeon holed into bringing rogues to every dungeon.

  1. The meta is really bad right now.

It’s super, super strict. BDK, sometimes BRewm, Restro Druid, Rogue, DH, Mage, Boomkin, and now recently sometimes Ele Shaman. That’s pretty much it. Hell, even double rogue comps make more appearances in the top leader boards than classes not mentioned above.

Part of this is because of class balance, but a huge part of it is because of the dungeon design and it could be remedied to favor other classes.

  1. Affix balance is going to be ever changing, but one thing affixes should never do is slow down the pacing so much that it becomes boring and unrewarding.

This is a time trial mode. The enjoyment comes in going fast and beating your timers from before, not necessarily beating the timer that week. You want to go into every week and do better than you did the week before, but there are some affixes that just make that impossible.

  1. Specific Affix feedback

LEVEL 2 AFFIXES

Fortified: too much of an HP increase. the amount of extra HP you have to burn through is significantly higher, and in most dungeons the trash pulls are already harder than the bosses. the Hp increase should be toned down a little bit. You look at the trash in the first boss in King’s Rest’s room. Fortified makes the Champions harder than the actual boss, and the Zul mob harder than anything in any M+. That’s not right.

Tyrannical: perfectly fine imo

LEVEL 4 AFFIXES

Bolstering: Slows down dungeons too much. Rather than have the % increase be additive, have it increase with diminishing returns. It’s too punishing when there are mobs with different HP amounts and not only a few classes can handle the target swap properly.

Raging: Perfectly fine.

Sanguine: The pools should be smaller and probably expire faster. The trick with it should be timing CC properly so you don’t stun the adds into the pools, not have it so they’re so large that they have time to stop and cast while kiting to heal to full.

Teeming: Alright on Tyrannical weeks, awful on Fortified weeks. Something should be done to soften the synergy between those two.

Bursting: Perfectly fine.

LEVEL 7 AFFIXES

Necrotic: 9 seconds is probably a bit too long for this debuff. You REALLY notice Necrotic when pugging with random tanks because there’s just no way to synchronize how to get them to drop stacks sometimes. Changing it to 5-6 seconds would be better.

Skittish: Perfectly fine.

Quaking: Perfectly Fine

Volcanic: Perfectly Fine

Explosive: Gimps a lot of classes. If you don’t have a lot of hard hitting instant spells or bursty melee, you have to pull way too slow. More AoE (or ALL AoE) should hit Explosives.

Grievous: Would change from 90% to 80%. Much like Necrotic, you really feel this when pugging.

16 Likes
165

I’m not fully against better loot from M+, just 385 from +15 like was suggested doesn’t seem right. I currently can go into a +15 with no preparation or plan with 4 guildies and pretty random comp and complete it fairly easily. If a +20 gave 385 and +15 375 that would be more in line to me. But 385s from +15s just feels too easy to me. But then amount of loot would need to stop scaling with key level, cause getting 10 385s from single 20 would be too much.

166

Bolstering, Explosive, and Sanguine. I hate them.

Sanguine:
I didn’t get a Waycrest in my group as of yet but last Sanguine week we considered it a dead key especially if your path is top right…I’d like to see the puddles scale with mob size so maggots don’t make the same gigantic puddles as everything else. Also, instead of healing the mob, it makes the target take 30% less damage per puddle.

Bolstering: I’m OK with 20% increased damage but 20% MAX health with so many traps like Shrine/KR/Siege it just feels unfair. Maybe 20% increased damage and 10% decreased damage taken per bolster on a 8 second duration? Probably too similar to Raging.

Explosive: Just way too RNG. Theres no way to know if 1 is gonna spawn or 5, terrible affix and i dont even have a suggestion for it. just rework it.

Id also like to see Bursting let you drink/mount while its ticking, very annoying to deal with.

2 Likes
167

I’ve raided in top 50 and top 5 world guilds in prior expansions and done reasonably high (M +16 to +18) mythic dungeon runs this season having just come back to the game after a long lay off.

Having that experience in both facets of the game, I can say that the individual mechanical difficulty feels more present in M+. The teamwork/coordination while within the content is also at a high level (with cool down and interrupt tracking way more relevant in M+ at least from a DPS player’s perspective).

That said, high Mythic raiding has elements that M+ doesn’t have (larger team coordination and a higher presence of pass/fail mechanics where 1 out of 20 people can get something wrong and wipe the attempt). I really don’t judge either type of content as more “deserving” of the best items in the game if we are just basing it on difficulty.

I do think Blizzard will want to maintain some separation of gear for those that raid versus those that do smaller form content but the game logic behind that would be to keep the incentives for large guilds to exist rather than difficulty / merit. I’m OK with that.

At the end of the day, gear for me is a means to an end - I want better gear so I can clear more difficult content. Anything outside of that is noise to me. I will be back to raiding in the upcoming tier a) because it looks like great content b) the bug has bit me to do so competitively again and c) it doesn’t hurt that raid gear will help me push higher M+ keys.

If one of the reasons I’m going back to raiding is because it will help me push higher M+, I don’t see why it’s a bad thing if one of the reasons a raider starts pushing M+ is so they can be more successful in raids. Bi-directional synergy of endgame PvE content sounds like a desirable thing.

168

The dungeons themselves aren’t as interesting or fun as Legion, or even WoD for me. We run with our same group every Friday night, and we find that most weeks although we’re finishing keys under time our weekly chests in BFA are both providing lower item level rewards and are much more likely to provide rewards we can’t use.

We have been running with the same 5 man since WoD. We all play with a large bank of toons, so BFA is absolutely different and not tuned nearly as well as Legion.

On the subject of affixes: Why does it seem like almost every affix is designed to punish healers? Can’t you think of some new fancy affixes that are aimed at DPS? What about a punishment mechanic that halves DPS? What about something beyond Necrotic that would concern a Tank?

3 Likes
169

It just goes to show how poorly balanced dungeons are when people keep asking for keys to be re-rolled. While it is understandable some dungeons are harder on certain affix, it shouldn’t be astronomically so.

1 Like
170

i would settle for 380 from 15. 375 is just a mere heroic warforge, and that is basically lfr.

172

preachhhhhhh <3

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There is an entire community of players that would be devastated by some sort of deserter debuff or penalty for leaving. People that play for io make up a significant portion of people doing M+, and leaving when a key is no longer timeable is not only common practice but also part strategy to assure you get the same key on a lower difficulty.

I want to be able to reroll keys by doing a dungeon and getting 1 lower than what you complete again. It is such an unneccessary timesink to always have to build up keys lower than what you want to be doing and hope you get good keys to push or keys you actually want to do.

If I do a 16 with a group, what is so bad about the other 4 getting a 15? Why is that considered bad? I have at least 15s completed on time for every dungeon except KR yet every week I have to go through the grind of pushing up 14s, which if it’s a bad key can often turn to 13s and so on which makes my grind getting back to 16 almost entirely dependant on someone else’s key - and Warlock isn’t meta right now so pugging them is hard enough.

It’s not like fishing for keys was completing the dungeons for people - we still had to run them and do them on time. It just significantly increased the chance we would get a key we’d actually want to do thus increasing enjoyment.

2 Likes
174

From the perspective of someone who skipped a couple of X-pacs and started BfA late, the most annoying thing about mythics is having to learn the hard lessons about what is different or didn’t matter in heroics on other peoples keys. A lot of people ( understandably ) don’t have the patience for new players at this point and I think this situation greatly contributes to the toxic atmosphere surrounding mythic plus.

A “Heroic+” that is an mythic+2 with one random affix, but in LFG, would be very helpful for people that want to get into mythics. It’s one thing getting caught by gotcha mechanics in a time walking dungeon or when you’re new to heroics, but it’s animosity when it’s timed and will cause someone else’s key to downgrade.

1 Like
175

My problem with mythic+ is that the affixes don’t have the same difficulty at all. For example if it’s volcanic that week this has to be the easiest lvl 7 affix in the world but then next week it’s grievous and your healers want to cry because it’s horrible to deal with. Do you get the point I’m trying to make?

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176

Grievous really feels like torture. The health threshold should be reduced. There is no way most healers would say they’re enjoying the challenge of running a grievous keystone.

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177

What if M+ gear was separate from raid gear. For example gear you get in M+ gives extra X agility inside M+, and raid gear gives X extra agility while inside raids. The number could be tuned to be such that you can still do +15s in raid gear or do easy mythic bosses in M+ gear, but if you want to push +20s you need full M+ set, and full raid set to go for famed slayer.

178

Also want to reiterate how overtuned King’s Rest is.

If packs aren’t skippable without a rogue, why do you jam the % so heavily into the dungeon? You get to almost 120% by just going the route you have to go and none of the packs are short really lived adds.

1 Like
179

Hello Blizzard,
I would like to start off with thanking you for adding mythic plus to your game. This mode has basically kept me motivated to continue my adventure on Azeroth. I am the Rank 1 Holy paladin on Alliance in NA at 2000-2100 range io (according to Raider io) and I would like to express my frustration .
Now to the important part. As an off meta healer(Holy Paladin), who is suffering in every single key, relaying on the group to play around him, this includes using healing potions, healthstones, defensives, constant kiting on the tank side on every single pull, it really frustrates my gameplay. Not being invited to keys, because my class is not able to heal through higher than a +18 is quite devastating for the players of that class. Some dungeons, such as Temple, Siege and our favourite King’s Rest, are pretty much undoable with the amount of healing required. Holy paladins have not had any changes since the beginning of the expansion and I would have been fine with it, if the mythic plus dungeons were tuned correctly. I don’t see any resto shamans or holy priests either up here. There are tons of trash packs that wipe many well experienced groups because the damage is just too much. It is mathematically impossible. Groups have been adjusting routes, depending on affixes each week, but the trash in front of Vol’Kaal or all the trash before the third and the fourth boss in Motherload has been skipped since the beginning of the expansion. Nine out of ten groups avoid any bombers in Siege of Boralus. This should be sending you signs that something is wrong.
Another huge aspect that everybody was enjoying was the ability to delete keys. On some weeks you are not able to complete Temple or Siege, such as the Tyranical along with Grevious. The incoming damage is just mathematically impossible to be healed by 99% of the healers on a higher than a +18. And on another side, there is Atal’Dazar where every group steam through it. Having to kiss your rabbit leg for good luck, sending some insane prayers to the gods of RNG and throwing money in the nearest fountain before you complete a key to not get a King’s Rest, Temple or Shine has become a ritual for every single push group and pug group. Thus being said, with the current state of the keys, if you receive one of these keys, you are pretty much done with Mythic plus for the week. Funny enough, it all comes to overtuned trash packs/bosses and affixes again.
The last point I would like to make is the lack of communication between us, the community and the developers/game designers. We have been posting in the forums, reddit, twitter and every single place you can imagine where we can reach you. We as a community, would like to have this connection, because it seems like blizzard does not care much about mythic plus or the overall opinion. Thus being said, an example would be the early changes of some dungeons with the arrival of 8.1. Groups had to deplete their key in order to realize that the Underrot trash pack at the beginning is a mandatory kill now. Why do we need to understand from reddit about a change that you have made to your game? Why does the PVP section of the game receive their changes in an official post ? With what Mythic plus is more diffrent than PVP so it can justify the lack of communication?

I sincerely miss the challenge modes from WoD and Mist of Pandaria, because at least they gave us a challenge and a reward that we knew we could complete and obtain. Mythic plus was suppose to replace that, but at this point people lose motivation, just because with their class it is impossible to complete a high end keystone.

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180

The problem is that raiderio is very poorly made for pugging. You are describing a situation where people aren’t necessarily doing anything wrong, but they are following the incentives of a fan made scoring system that takes very little into account for their scoring yet people still hold it for the end all be all. I have entire videos on this topic so I won’t go into it here, but in the end it sounds like we both want more options either way.

I can’t abide a person who leaves my key after a single mistake 10 or 15 minutes into the key because they think there is no point to completing it, especially now with residium being a thing.

If blizzard isn’t going to punish them, then the community is going to have to start doing it because that level of selfishness isn’t acceptable in a difficulty of content where you can not continue without the person, you cannot replace the person, and to start over means you have to do the entire dungeon again on a difficulty you don’t want to do it on.

Imagine if this is how pug raiding worked?

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181

I would like more variety and options in terms of choosing people for keys, getting information about them as well as rewards.

IO is very useful but it it is not the whole story and it is only ultimately a good indicator someone is capable. You really don’t know until you do the key with them.

If we could see more information in general when making groups it would be amazing. ILVL is not enough or just seeing their Raider IO and then spending a ton of time digging up more information. Having their info upfront would be very helpful.

Also there is a huge disconnect and disparity between weeks in terms of how many people do keys, between dungeons and so forth. There is also a very annoying problem with people who do very high keys and who quite often pug lower keys 10-13 on mains or alts and bring their attitude with them.

Lastly, overall I feel certain dungeons should get time increase.

Shrine is currently extremely unforgiving in many weeks and even harder to even 1 chest it. Easiest solution in my opinion would be to add six minutes to the timer. Making it a 45 min dungeon would make it a lot more balanced.

King’s Rest…For first boss I don’t have a problem with spit gold as much the fact that by bringing in a boomkin or frost mage you can ignore the adds entirely. I haven’t seen a group yet that kills pack after pack and then switch to boss. Spit gold simply does too much damage to have too many phases.

Lastly, sanguine is extremely annoying in BFA. Dungeons like Motherlode, Tol Dagor and Waycrest is mind boggling bad with sanguine coupled with infested. Thankfully the season 1 is almost over and even better Reaping will not drop sanguine.

Yet, this whole season sanguine and infested was awful beyond words.

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I hate those that do it when they join a group with a clear description of completion or something along the same lines. It’s wishful thinking but at the least I would like to see a page where stats were available in regards to how many keys a person left within the first 5 minutes or something.

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183

I would say making it a 45 min dungeon would go a long way. The biggest problem with a lot of weeks is how unforgiving the timer is.

If you’re a mid range mythic plus player…You overwhelmingly see 1 chests when you look at people’s score. In legion it was a whole different story. You felt somewhat comfortable in many weeks to have a shot at 2 chest by playing well and with coordination.

In BFA you need things like rogue skips, intense coordination, interruptions, death runs, mega pulls and more just to have a chance at 1 chest.

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184

Myself I think the current mythic scene is ridiculous. Takes five times longer to kill a three pack mob, then it does to kill the bosses in the dungeons. I mean you have it all backwards.

1 Like