This is honestly hands down one of the best posts here. Thank you for making this. I hope that it will be listened to.
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I’m not sure that I like the idea of not having a key downgrade with leaving. I pretty much only care about a M+ being 10, due to the weekly chest cap. As such, I appreciate the ability to quickly and easily downgrade an 11+ key by starting and immediately zoning out.
I’m not saying that your idea lacks merit within the context of a group member dropping out mid-run, but I did want to point out tangential implications to less harmful scenarios.
I believe dungeon design has been remarked upon already, so I will address classes. I believe certain choices with class design that have had M+ in mind are very questionable.
Example: Severely nerfing AoE stuns and limiting burst damage from abilities like fist of fury was obviously done in response to the Legion dungeon meta, the problem is that we lack so much of the tools we had in Legion, so it’s way too much.
This really does nothing but uneccesarily limit class diversity in the meta and seems rather shortsighted. Can we expect some of these overnerfed toolkits to get a bit of love?
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I think you are looking at +15 at this point, instead of looking at it at the beginning of the season. You might be able to go into a +15 as a Mythic Raider with full Mythic Raid gear and do it relatively easily with 4 more equally geared Mythic Raiders. However, would you have been able to do this the same week the Mythic Raid was released, or would it be as easy in 370 gear as opposed to 385+. I would have to say no. Furthermore, have you done +15’s yet or is your comment more conjecture than factually based? It doesn’t appear so. This isn’t to say you couldn’t, just that you haven’t.
I would venture a guess that you are looking at .01% of the Mythic + community that is consistently doing 18+ Keys, and most of the people doing 18+ at this point are doing them relatively recently, after acquiring 385+ gear from Raids or endless titan forge grinding.
Compare that in turn with the amount of people who have now full cleared Mythic Uldir…a thousand Guilds, more?
Now I would say that if you take the teams that were pushing +15’s earliest in the season, and gave them 385 Gear, that they would still be quite a bit behind the earliest Mythic Raid guilds in terms of gear allocation. Method, Limit etc. were full clearing first week. Yes they are the .01% of guilds, but the Mythic + community that pushed +15 the earliest is also the .01% of players.
Ultimately all I am trying to say, is that if you divergent end game content (Mythic Raiding, PVP, M+), that are offered as end game content to players, in a competitive environment, that their gearing should be equal. There are way to balance it, but offering the M+ community 15 levels under Mythic Raid gear to me at least is nonsensical.
I am sure that your guild, like so many others, has Uldir on farm (Maybe not Ghunn), but the rest. Each clear takes the guild what, an hour and a half. 3 Hours? So essentially 3 M+ instances. However, where at this point I am hoping for a titan forge to get a 385, a Mythic Raider starts with that as his base, and has a much bigger pool of people to trade with when it isn’t an upgrade, thus speeding up the time it takes to gear out.
Lastly, if you look at the higher end Mythic + community, almost everyone raids Mythic level. However, many of them only do it, because they feel they have to in order to be competitive in Mythic +, and all the Raiders, far out-geared those Mythic + players who didn’t raid.
We could get into the discussion of Mythic Raid > Mythic + > PVP all day, and each has its Merits, Strengths and Weaknesses. All I am saying is that there shouldn’t be such a large gap in gear differential between the two (at a certain point), because the individual Skill required to perform at those higher levels is roughly similar, although in PVP and Mythic + unlike in Raiding, that level scales infinitely, while Raiding stays the same (at least until a new tier is released).
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I would like to see M+ be more fun and rewarding. New affixes that don’t outright punish you would be a great addition, like the slimes at the beginning of Siege of Nizao temple. Or a cycling buff like Earthlink that reduces the cooldowns of your abilites. Something that doesn’t just straight up make the dungeon more difficult, as these tend to be less fun. There are a lot of examples of games that do things like this: Destiny 2, Runescape (shattered worlds) to name a couple.
For rewards, unique pets, mounts, and titles would a start. I would personally like to see the challenge mode gear added here as a small drop rate from 10 and higher keys, with higher keys having a better drop rate. This gives a lot of additional content to a stale meta.
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The biggest issue im having right now is the class balance. Can we make the other tanks aside from bdk more competitive please?
Can you make it so I may consider running a dungeon w/o a rogue or a demon hunter?
Can you make it so I’m not gonna insta decline resto shamans and holy paladins?
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From a DPS perspective, I’ve been enjoying progressing in higher keys with my friends over the past couple months.
However, one of the biggest issues I’ve noticed in my runs is the buggy (or limited) line of sight points in a few of the dungeons. Particularly Motherlode, Tol Dagor, and, to a degree, Freehold (although I realize in the case of Freehold, this is probably more or less intentional).
Not only does this make it less interesting from a tanking perspective as far as how to engage various packs of mobs, it also makes dealing with certain affixes unintuitive and arguably unfairly challenging.
For example, say in Motherlode a caster happens to be positioned in a sanguine pool and the tank runs over to a metal cylinder that appears to break line of sight, but instead the mob is able to spell cast through the cylinder.
Of course, there are other potential ways to deal with this issue (ranged spell interrupt, ring of peace, etc.) But the point is that line of sight has traditionally been one of the tools in a tank’s toolkit and there seems to be quite a few dungeons where line of sight should be available but isn’t due to clipping or lack of hit detection.
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Here’s my feedback:
Shrine
-second boss needs a visual overhaul. Too many abilities that are basically the same colour as each other or class abilities. As someone with terrible eyes, it is impossible for me to see the tornadoes.
-last boss. This boss takes way too long. I haven’t done it since the nerf but I doubt it will make a difference. Maybe increase the time it takes him to phase?
Motherlode:
this dungeon has insane amounts of trash with huge aggro radiuses and has awful gear drops. Outside of doing it for IO, it is mostly not worth the headache
Siege:
-Combat bug galore. So easy to get stuck in combat in this dungeon for no reason and having to go through the dungeon clearing mobs to figure out which one you’re supposedly in combat with is silly
-The last boss does not work correctly for classes with pets. You end up having to resummon pets between platforms
- the bananas could really go away and I doubt anyone would mind.
Waycrest:
- so many bugs with trash here. Trash being pulled through walls, trash getting launched into the ceiling. It’s silly and ridiculous.
ToL Dagor:
Same as waycrest. Mobs being pulled through ceilings, falling through the floor, etc.
ToS:
- the aoe on the first boss just plain hits too hard.
- the snake boss is boring. Can we have the intermission phase shortened?
Freehold:
During the third boss. The sharks bug out constantly. They either get stuck and never move or go way faster than they should and don’t slow down or get stunned in the blood.
Underrot:
- my only complaint with this dungeon is that during the beginning trash, the one job seems to randomly blood cleave with no cast time. Other than that this dungeon is well balanced imo.
This is a mischaracterization.
People who are incentivized by raider io are people pushing keys over +10. When you’re pushing keys over +10, the only reason you do so is for score or the desire to push the key to +15 to complete on time for the achievement.
You’re saying you can’t abide a person who leaves your key after a single mistake, but chances are you are saying that because you are not then in the groups that are pushing high keys because that is an agreed upon condition before people starts the key to begin with. It’s common practice for the entire group, not just one person going into your key and thinking that. Any group that has a description “pushing” or “push group” or anything similar thinks the exact same way I do. That is the point. And penalizing people for leaving those groups would punish people for doing absolutely nothing wrong.
When you are pushing keys higher than 10, the only incentive to complete them is to complete them on time for achievements (the +15 dungeons on time) and score. It isn’t for anything else.
You’re calling it selfish but you also don’t understand that the entire GROUP doing push groups doesn’t want to complete the key. That is what you are missing.
You seem to be speaking only from the perspective of someone who wants to put their key up and pug with 4 other randoms. I am talking about people who group together for the sole purpose to push keys, or join groups at all for the sole purpose to push keys. You need to acknowledge how big that community is, what their every day practices are (and no one is upset when people want to leave a missed key, believe me), and how your idea of punishing people for leaving would devastate them.
When you do higher keys… you are in the outlier if you want to grind through every missed timer, and if it’s your group it is up to you to make that intention clear so other people can not join your group. You might not like raider io, but you have to acknowledge how big of a community uses it and enjoys it and has for a very long time. There is no reason to make moves to hurt it.
fwiw, I also don’t think people should be punished for leaving non-push groups… because if a group lies about their skill level or preparation for a dungeon, you could essentially trap someone in a dungeon for a long time when it is not their job to teach or carry other people, but that’s a different discussion.
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You insta decline holy paladins? ![:cry:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/cry.png?v=6" ":cry:")
Grievous is still horrible. It is 100% garbage. There is no saving that affix, it just needs to be taken out of the rotation.
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M+ is 90% of my time in WoW and…
You need to release more dungeons. Most of the people I play with get tired of running the same content over and over at a certain point. It feels like we’re hitting that point now.
I love a challenge, but many of these affixes make BFA M+ feel bad. My prot warrior is going to run his 10 for the week and that’s it. Sanguine just isn’t fun. Bolstering is just as bad… it just slows the run down. I could go on but I’m typing on a phone and that feels bad too… lol
Ducking swipe…
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I completely agree. <3
No I have not done +15s, because I do one key a week for residium and just had to reroll from boomkin into tank role and grind AP on 2 tanks for next tier. Last week I did 14 Motherload and we wiped 3 times and still +1 ii. Point is if we bothered to plan the dungeon with method dungeon tools or something we could do a +15. And while yes doing +15 early on would be harder in lower ilvl like 370-375. It would still be doable, it would just take us like 20-30 hours of learning all the dungeons just like progressing on a raid boss, since we normally don’t spam M+ much. Problem is we’d feel obligated to spend that much time in there if they reward infinite 385s. M+ has huge burden of knowledge of knowing every pull and how to deal with it. Once you learn it its not different from doing other challenging pve content.
I raid with people who have 2.5k IO score and have 20s in like every dungeon almost, can look them up. Handssome BDK and Asuna a mage. Three people in our guild also got realm first 15 on Hyjal, it was done I think week 2 of uldir progress. These people are also good at raiding but its not like they are perfect robots that make no mistakes compared to people who just do +14-15s each week at this point for residium. M+ are just as scripted as raids, once you know how to pull a dungeon and what each pull requires when it comes to cc and interrupts, its same thing as raid bosses. Why should M+ provide infinite 385 loot, when raids have lock outs. I’m not opposed to M+ giving 1-3 385s a week for high keys, but infinite loot would screw over raiding scene a lot.
Also just like raiders raid for the challenge aren’t people pushing 20s also doing it for the challenge. I used to love CMs and pushing for realm first titles in MoP and WoD. I loved it for the challenge more than anything.
I do think M+ could have more cosmetic rewards, like prestigious mounts that top x % of M+ people get, kinda like gladiator mounts, and maybe x-mogs for all +15s and all +20s.
I just think infinite 385s for +15s would make gearing process go too fast, and trivialize raiding quickly.
To answer your points, just like M+ players feel forced to raid, raiders feel forced to do M+, and if loot was buffed we’d feel forced even more. Which is why I suggested loot from M+ being better inside M+ and from raids inside raids. That way neither group would feel forced to do other content.
I have a pocket healer buddy who plays a holy pally. Hes about the only holy pally i trust right now. There are a lot of holy pallies out there giving the class a bad name so yeah i kind of overlook you guys atm.
You shouldn’t overlook the desire to get the 11 or 10 or 12 next week. Some weeks people do not want to remotely raise keys again.
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I wouldn’t say I’m overlooking that, because those people don’t describe the push groups I am talking about.
Not to mention, if the goal is to just get your 10 in each week… is it easier to time a +9 and turn it into a 10, or do an extra 11 that week so your next cache has a 10 in it?
A lot of points to get to, but I’ll try to keep it concise.
- I will agree that last week you could easily clear 15’s in 385 raid gear, as last week was the second easiest affix grouping we have had so the ease of 15’s last week is truly a fair representation of the general difficulty of higher M+.
- I would argue that Mythic + is more difficult than other content, because the affixes change each week, and each time you go up a key the difficulty increases. Taloc doesnt get more health or change abilities each week, and it is a lot easier to hide weak players in 20 people as opposed to 5. We are talking a little apples and oranges, as Mythic + is by its nature a Dynamic environment, while Mythic Raids are a static environment. This isn’t to say that the Static environment is not difficult, just that it doesn’t change, where as Mythic + is dynamic, and so its difficulty and environment change. Consequently, while at a certain point Mythic Raids and Mythic + might be a similar level of difficulty, by its very nature Mythic + is able to become more difficult than Mythic raiding, because M+ is a dynamic environment whereas Mythic Raiding is static (it might not be static if you include the nurfs to bosses that will happen to allow B, C, D and E tier guilds to get CE, but they do the same thing in M+ to allow people to clear higher keys that they might not be able to clear, so lets call this difference net neutral). Consequently, I cant agree with your point that you can memorize every pull in M+, because M+ is static and by its nature changes each week and each keystone level you increase.
- Your point about feeling like you would have to do M+ to compete in Mythic Raiding is kind of my point, in reverse. I feel like like I have to Mythic Raid to compete in high end Mythic +. I will agree that maybe getting 1 piece of 385 loot each time you do a 15 would be too much. However, now I am getting 2 pieces of 370 gear from 20 and 21’s. I should at least get 1 piece of 385, as I assume that there wouldn’t be an argument that a 20 or 21 of any key at this point is more difficult than killing Taloc (or for that matter any boss outside of Ghunn in Mythic Rad). I don’t know what the correct balance is, all I know is that if M+, Mythic Raiding, or PVP is your end game fix, you shouldn’t be obligated to move to an end game structure you dont enjoy to be competitive in teh one you do enjoy.
- I’m right at 2,500 IO as well, and I make mistakes, we all do. There were very few people doing 15’s the second week Uldir was released. I would venture to say that more people cleared Mythic Uldir second week it was released than completed a 15 second week Uldir was released, and frankly these are probably the same people.
- I agree that I push 20+'s for the challenge, and many Mythic Raiders raid for the challenge. Each time I push a higher keystone level than I did before it is exciting and I feel some small piece of accomplishment. However, this is only part of the game. Why do you full clear Uldir each week once it is on farm? Is it more challenging each week? I would say, probably not, because as discussed previously it is a static environment. Taloc didn’t get harder or more difficult, you didnt increase the difficulty level. You clear each week to get gear. I assume you don’t get the same sense of accomplishment killing Taloc the 15th once you are 20 item levels above where you were when you killed it the first time? Lebron might love Basketball, and winning National Championship, but he also expects to get paid.
- I agree with more prestigious rewards.
- I agree that it shouldn’t be infinite 385’s, there has to be a balance. All I am trying to say is that at some point I should be able to get consistently achieve the same level gear as a Mythic Raider. Especially because by its nature M+ will ultimately be more difficult than Mythic Raids.
- Lastly, I don’t think any Mythic Raider feels forced to do M+ at this point. RA made it so that Mythic Raid Azerite gear, is in almost all situations better for raids than azerite from M+ (and getting good azerite from M+ pre residue, was the most RNG element I have seen in this game outside of Vanilla) . That being said in conclusion I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. Raiders shouldn’t have to do M+ and M+ shouldnt have to raid. This is the tale as old as time, and one that most PVP’rs have bemoaned since grand marshall runs in Vanilla. Unfortunately though, I think we are talking to ourselves, because in over a decade of WoW, I sure haven’t seen a move to correct this situation in whatever form it arises.
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I have been leaving texts on bot the bug box and the other one about my inability to transfer a toon because of it being stuck in processing. The toon is Dixiedicer in Nazgrel and the destination transfer is Vek’lanesh. I paid for this last year and the transfer is still not working and hung up. I am not happy with the inability to get this issue addressed and being ignored. You can reach me by the phone number I left or Rosalita in Nazgrel my main. Please…respond to this. I am way overdue for a resolution!
I think something we can all agree on is having cosmetic rewards at the higher levels on par with PVP/Raid. Transmog options for different levels, a title for the highest key on the realm, Mount like the glad mount. I am sure some of you could elaborate on my point a bit further, but as I see on these forums that is a thing everyone can agree on.