Hmm. I know that grievous has been changed. The resto shaman I ran with for a long time always struggled to get people above 90 on higher keys. I’d be interested to hear a bit more about how you are doing this, as I enjoy restoration as well, but from what I have seen out of them this xpac in dungeons, it has been very demotivating for me to get mine started.
Well, when running on other toons with resto shaman, the number 1 thing I think I see is not using all the tools in the toolbox. Healing Rain, for example should be on cooldown at all times. It’s just too good a supplmental to leave unused. The Earth wall totem can also stabalize a group while you top off with undulation or spout. The end of most trash packs, my HR will be on the ground already, I’ll cast a CH into a splashy thingy (I forget the name of the spell, but replaced old artifact ability) and that will top most people in-between grievous ticks. Anyone that was low (or too inconsiderate to stand in the healing rain) gets a supplemental surge.
Now, I’m not doing terribly high keys, either. 10-12 is about my comfort range. I think 12 Kings Rest might be my highest? I’d have to check IO, but I don’t think grievous scales.
ALL OF THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!
Blizzard, I would like to start off by saying that I LOVE this game. Anyone who is still paying for the game at its current state, whether it be with gold or money, still loves the game. M+ is the most exciting content that has been added to the game since Legion release. PLEASE, consider this. I feel as though the community has lost some interest in bfa keys because of how long you have to concentrate for. Many players do not want to focus on mechanics as much as they focus on maximizing hps and dps. Many players appreciated how m+ in Legion was much more about how much damage you could do and how much your tank could handle pulling. IT IS FUN TO HIT YOUR BUTTONS AND DO DAMAGE! That is the most rewarding part of grinding for months throughout a tier to get gear.This is rarely the case anymore. There are some weeks and dungeons that allow that in bfa, and THAT is when everyone is having a blast. Pushing keys with your friends is the most fulfilling activity the game has to offer. I’m not saying that you need to nerf keys, but there are many changes that would encourage people to come back to m+! My main issue is the combination of certain affix. Nobody even wants to log into the game this week (Grievous, fortified, sanguine). Nobody wants to log in on bolstering weeks or explosive weeks. Why not make grievous tick for a lower percentage of your health? It is almost impossible to pug keys during some of these weeks, and many people don’t have enough friends still playing the game to be able to get a group together on their own…
The gcd change also really hurt some players, as slowing down classes is NEVER good. I feel the strongest and most entertained (as a fury warrior) during lust, when my computer can barely keep up with the gcd! In Legion, I and many other classes were sometimes pressing a few buttons at once. Not going to lie, I felt like a GOD popping Charge, Avatar, Battle Cry, and odyns fury, and Bloodbath all at once. Now, it’s so much slower. This brings me to my next point.
In very high end keys, there is a meta. You have made it easier on tanks, thank you for that. Thank you for helping out prot warrior! However, I think some classes could use an extra utility button or two in order to be relevant. For instance, DH have cc, aoe stun, st stun, immunity, big damage, mobility, survivability, etc. Let’s look at what a warrior has. Big damage, mobility, a disorient which sometimes makes mobs run way too far away and pulls extra and wipes the group, a st stun which takes away from our mobility, and insane threat generation which we can not mitigate. Rallying cry is useful, but often becomes obsolete as it being on the gcd doesn’t allow you to use it in the split second that it’s useful for the group. I have been 1800 IO for a long time as a fury warrior. I don’t feel like my damage is enough to carry my 0 utility through higher end keys, and that is just a fact for many classes. There is little dps class variation in high end m+, especially since almost every group brings a rogue for shroud and their damage. I’m in no way asking for a nerf to these classes, because these classes enable high end keys to be completed in time, but small changes such as pot cd after using invis pot being lowered. Giving warrior dps back shockwave would be a game changer for us.
My last suggestion: Implement a m+ reward system! The literal only incentive to be doing keys any higher than 15 is for a score on a 3rd party website. That alienates a VERY large percentage of players who don’t care to look on raiderio, or even know what that website is! In legion, I remember getting my +15 done in time while it was still relevant. Getting to walk around as a huge purple bear because of it was AWESOME!! Add in mounts, more achievements, titles etc. M+ is (perhaps) just as popular as pvp, why not add in the same reward system? Please give players a reason and reward for playing your game! Please allow players to farm titan residuum! PLEASE allow a way to at least roll what affix your key gets. Let us spend our hydrocore on rolling on the affix, between the 15 or so combinations that are in the game atm. And let’s say we get an undesirable one? Without key deletion, PLEASE give us the option to choose which dungeon we want the key to be for! It would give us soooo much more to do. And be way more healthy for the game for players to have a reason to log in every week, instead of avoiding certain weeks with bad affix combinations. Please at least listen to what your FANBASE is suggesting! ![:smiley:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
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Oh, can we get an In-Game version of Raider IO? It’s pretty essential for pugging, and using a 3rd party site for something that should be trivially available information in game is kind of a PITA.
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Maybe if not the same thing as raiderio, at least some sort of Leaderboard system. Maybe it only tracks your best runs. Some way for other players to see your achievements other than through a 3rd party website! I think this would also encourage more players to push keys! The key leaderboard system for guilds was fun in legion, not sure why they took it away. M+ is supposed to be competitive, right?
Going through replies, the overall theme I’ve noticed is effort+time vs. Reward.
End of dungeon rewards are just too low for how hard some of the dungeons are especially with certain affixes.
If rewards were better than people would be more inclined to suffer through harder combos. However, a balance needs to be struck/maintained with raiding content.
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Hi, I un-subbed and M+ was a huge reason why. It just feels… awful. There are a few big reasons for me:
-almost every dungeon takes wayyy too long. There is no blasting through M+ anymore.
-no Azerite gear? Not really any gear period. This just… doesn’t make any sense at all. Literally being unable to farm gear for your character is just… so, so, so bad. This is probably the single worst change the entire expansion. There is literally no reason to do M+ aside from getting 1 done for your weekly cache for “titanium residium” or w/e it’s called which is also an extremely dumb addition to the game. Just add Azerite gear to M+ and SO many things are solved.
-no way to reroll keys is awful
-class compositions are very limited, especially for noobs / pugs. Druids / Rogues / DH / DK tank = best group for every dungeon, every time. I play both DH and druid and this is still annoying.
-AP is so trash this expansion, it just feels so bad. It’s actually awful hitting 120 with a new character and not being able to use your shoulders / head / chest. Give WAY more from M+ because this “feature” is just so bad.
This post is a great step in the right direction. Look at Fortnite - the company listens avidly to their player base and frequently implements community suggestions. Sometimes they work (most of the time) and sometimes they don’t. When they don’t work, they fix it quickly. The problem with WOW is that the content pacing is so abysmally slow yet we’re literally paying $25 (CAD) a month to play. It feels brutal. You have sooooo many people rooting for you to make it, to make this game great, but you keep making mistake after mistake even when you have literally hundreds and hundreds of people sharing ideas with how to improve it.
3 Likes
First, the removal of the ability to delete keys seems like a huge mistake. I run with pretty much the same group of 7-8 people rotating between who is on. By Thursday we all, yes ALL of us ended up with Temple of Seth keys. I get that you want people to do all the dungeons but when your entire group ends up with the same dungeon, which is bugged (cyclone strike) and one of the bosses is really punishing with tyrannical (galv) it is really crappy to end up with an entire group of 8 people with the same dungeon key. Note that most of us got a seth key in the chest and were just stuck with it.
Even if its drops the key two levels to re-roll it, I would take it.
As for dungeon difficulty, we are just pushing into the +12 bracket, but it seems like the following are still really punishing :
Grievous : Way overtuned even with the changes. With the amount of just random aoe damage that happens in some dungeons this affix is just brutal to deal with. Some bosses, its just horrible (looking at you again Galv in TOS)
Shrine: Last boss takes way to long, especially on tyrannical. Since you nerfed DPS getting the buff you basically can get to the last boss with 5 minutes left and think to yourself “this is a depleted key” cause the boss just takes to long.
Boralus: Same issue as shrine, the last boss just takes to long. If you wipe on the last platform for whatever reason, its incredibly discouraging since its basically 1/4th the time of the whole dungeon to kill one boss.
Kings Rest: Spit gold does way to much damage. The rotating boss schedule of the council is really punishing. If you get the poison nova / totem boss first, it makes the dungeon way more difficult then if you get it last. The fact that it can do both poison nova + totems where as the other bosses just carry over one ability also seems really weird and broken. Just pick one ability (preferably the nova) and make it so its even amongst the bosses as they only carry one ability when they are not active.
Temple: Last boss is a pure and utter joke. The third boss (galv) is really hard if not one of the hardest mythic+ bosses in the game on tyrannical or grievous, and then the last boss is a freebie. Re-tune galv some how, and maybe add something? to the last boss to make it not a roll-over boss.
Waycrest: Sisters seem a bit overtuned on tyrannical - especially compared to the rest of the dungeon which is incredibly easy.
Atal: Tyranical the spiders on the last boss become a problem, but they are manageable if you have an immunity. Not having an immunity increases the difficulty by a huge chunk. Besides that, probably one of the best dungeons for balance. NOTE: If you go right at the start. If you go left, you are crazy. Those golems need to be removed or just completely re-designed or no group in their right mind will ever go to the left at the start of the dungeon.
Underrot: Removing the skip stinks, but the dungeon seems decently tuned.
3 Likes
Yes! It doesn’t have to be “exactly” the same, but people able to tell (at a glance) how experienced someone is would be great. I know great raiders, for example, who have hard time even completing +10 keys, and it’s not because they are bad players, but the new design for M+ is that the entire dungeon is one long boss fight, and you need to know ALL the mechanics to complete it. “Trash” isn’t “just trash” anymore.
I envision something like “bronze/silver/gold” emblem for completing a dungeon (+1, +2, +3), with a different emblem for count of them.
So, for example, you’d have a Gold Shield for doing +10 Atal on for +3 time, but after say, 10 times doing +3, you get a Bigger, Fancier shield.
These could aggregate up to your character profile for easy browing during pugging, too, possibly added to your character portrait like the elite art.
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As long as axe boss is before charge boss.
poison - axe - charge would be nice.
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I primarily tank on DK and Paladin for m+, usually 12s / 13s so nothing crazy. I play primarily with friends and guildies across multiple classes. My feedback is from that mid-level perspective.
I play m+ for fun, but I appreciate the azerite vendor coming in 8.1. That was a very welcome addition as I was one of the unlucky ones that only ever got one azerite piece before the vendor was added.
- Grievous is frustrating.
It is pulling teeth to find people willing to heal on grievous weeks because of how punishing it can be. We log on to mage alts to conjure food before dungeons on grievous week because the only food from cooking that can restore my health fast enough to counter grievous is darkmoon food, and it’s not cost effective to drop a fish feast every pull. (side note: Can we have more cooked food that restores health and mana by 5% / 10% per tick?)
The grievous affix is particularly punishing for Galvazz and the 3 sisters in Waycrest where the entire party is taking a lot of damage.
- Necrotic means tanking without tanking.
I’ll be the first to admit that my success rate is 25% on necrotic weeks and the highest I’ve chested are a +10 Freehold (Tyr) and +10 Tol Dogor (Fort) vs. my personal bests of +14 (Tyr) and +12 (Fort).
There are several packs that are just brutal when necrotic is up. I loathe temple of sethraliss eyeball room, eels and droplets in shrine, etc … Consider adding an ICD to applications of necrotic stacks or tuning specific mobs to not apply necrotic.
Necrotic is already pull -> kite -> pull -> kite anyway. At least let us actually tank for a little.
- Baseline tuning for +10
At +10, the only thing your dungeons should require to complete in time is whatever the current +10 gear drop ilvl is (370 for S1) and knowledge of fight and trash mechanics across all affixes at least 2 out of 3 times. If the difference between completing it in time is whether or not you had a battle res class with you in order to death run, then you should consider making adjustments to that dungeon.
Along those lines …
- Class Buff Scrolls
Every class buff / debuff should be available as a scroll. At the level I play, that will reduce variation based on whether we get certain classes or not.
As others have mentioned, you may also want to consider adding scrolls for battle res and shroud. Additionally, DH is the only class that brings a magic damage taken debuff. In the current meta, these abilities are pretty much required for completing keys at higher levels. At least give us a fighting chance at the +10 and +15 even if our friends play Prot Warr / Resto Sham / Hunter / Shadow Priest / Mage.
Maybe the scroll battle res brings you back with less mana and health than any other battle res. Maybe the cooldown on the shroud scroll is longer vs. the rogue spell. Maybe the damage taken debuff is 3% instead of 5%. Whatever you have to do to justify it.
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You can’t really do this without some sort of negative impact to the person leaving. Basically if the key is going to fail you just say, hey someone leave, and boom key doesn’t deplete. I think you have to punish the leaver rather then “not punish the group” since there is no real way for the game to know if someone is leaving because they are rude, or if someone is leaving to not deplete the key.
I agree on the rewards front. I don’t find myself having a reason to do M+ outside of the 1 for the weekly cache because of the lack of a reward.
However, I do like that Tyrannical and Fortified are on +2. I think these 2 affixes are what makes M+ fun and challenging, at least to me. I like that this week I have to actually pay attention to bosses / trash, and I like the increase in trash difficulty compared to Legion. I’d rather people learn the bosses on +2 than arrive at +10 and have no idea what the boss does still because it just melts outside of Tyrannical.
Interesting Idea about increasing by %s though. Tyrannical, for example, would maybe a base level of 10% hp and 3% damage at +2 and then increasing on every level without a new affix.
So the HP / Damage would be
+2 10% / 3%
+3 15% / 5%
+4 15% / 5%
+5 20% / 7%
+6 25% / 9%
+7 25% / 9%
+8 30% / 11%
+9 35% / 13%
+10 40% / 15%
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As much as I can see that, the only way I think that could work is if they give the leaver a faction wide 30 minute deserter debuf. Otherwise people would just ‘leave’ to reroll keys and I don’t think that’s what they intended. Personally I’d be happier if they just downgraded the final key quality based on how much you were over. So if you go over time the mobs in the dungeon automatically downgrade to the next key level, another five minutes they key degrades again and so on until the key is +2. You would get loot from the level you degrade to, and not the level you originally came in though.
I take issue with class changes when it comes to M+. Not for myself, but for my many friends who have suffered. Here’s a thought: When a class is underperforming, how about buffing that class rather than nerfing classes that are in a good spot? It’s not fair to punish people for playing a good class simply because members of another class feel their’s isn’t good enough.
Thanks!
battle shout gives 10% AP not damage so lower that a lot. shroud may last 15 seconds at a time, but probably saves a couple minutes per pack skipped.
It’d be great if Quaking wouldn’t interrupt eating/drinking so healers can adequately get mana in between pulls without having the entire dungeon to stop just in case one wants to appear.
It’s also pretty annoying what you can potentially waste your food buff because of it.
I’d also like some ways to make Raider io better on your end. Whether that’s your own rating system or a way for Raider io to track lower end keys. So far Raider io is only able to track either the top 500 or top 100 on the realm for the given dungeon and so that means if you want a score, you gotta do high keys.
It’d benefit more low end players or those just starting out if they can get a recorded score from lower keys.
Raider io is something that’ll never go away so I feel like it’s better off to try and make it better (again, on your end however it may be) so more people benefit from it.
edit:
Just a side note, I think it’d be fun to have dungeons not tied to M+ for a change/designed around it. I’m thinking like a large dungeon that takes a while to complete and is rather challenging the size of LBRS or BRD.
Instead of rushing to complete it, you take your time and enjoy the experience.
I’ve stopped doing them. The changes weren’t enough to make me do them regularly.
Part of it is the classes I play. I main a druid. I play feral. It’s difficult to pug on the toon and it simply doesn’t perform the way that other specs do in a dungeon. I am talking about DH, rogue, hunter, etc. My other spec is guardian and, tank wise, I feel third rate when compared to my blood DK. So, part of that is my problem with mythic plus. I miss doing them, so occasionally I think of lvling a toon just to do mythics on.
The other problem is just the design of them. The dungeons themselves are such a chore, such a grind, that after a while, I didn’t care anymore. The worse dungeon for mythic + in legion was Seat, which came late, and it feels like every dungeon is designed like it: ridiculous amounts of trash, a huge amount of wading through them time, a huge amount of time spent in the dungeon just grinding it out. All the BfA dungeons feel like that. Sure, some have ridiculous abilities or parts, and some have bosses that hit too much, or just whatever, but regardless of everything, the dungeons just feel like a grind. They’ve become a chore with no real reward for completing them. I’m sorry, but I’m not sure you’ll be able to overcome that this xpac.
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I feel like M+ needs some sort of leaderboard like PvP has and that mythic raiding sort of got (with the HoF feat of strength).
Right now, it’s basically a community leaderboard with Raiderio after +15. I’m not at all complaining about that being a thing, etc. but it is not perfect. The problem with the current competitive community setup in M+ Is it’s doomed to always have “dead keys”. They aren’t really dead it’s just that they can’t be completed at an equally high level as another.
If there could be some official direction in terms of scoring and maybe a couple small changes to how keys work I think that would solve the endless loop of frustration in regards to dungeon balance.
One “issue” I’m not sure how to solve, is the design goal of M+. The simplest way to put it is M+ in BfA is harder than Legion. Is that a bad thing?
Is being able to mass aoe everything without thinking really a good design?