Feedback: Mythic+

Community General Discussion
102

Oh here’s another one: at the end of the week, let us choose our M+ cache reward out of 3 randomized choices. Yes yes you get to keep your RNG quota, but we also get to make a choice. It’s not me, but several people claim to have quit because they’ve gotten boots or whatever 3 times in a row and frankly, that shouldn’t happen. Don’t make it an invisible “bad luck protection for that slot”, if there’s haste/mastery boots I need, I’d never get them if I had gotten vers/crit boots the week prior.

If you just randomize 3 options for us, and 2 of those are boots; haste/mastery and vers/crit, I the player, get to decide that I want to pick the haste/mastery ones for time and effort I put into the game.

4 Likes
103

I am sure a LOT of people will really appreciate if you guys flat out REMOVE “Grievous” affix. It was designed in Legion based on various number of factors like,

  • Able to swap Players Gear
  • Players Spells and Abilities
  • Artifact Weapon Traits (almost all had a LOT of passive defensive traits)
  • Legendaries (specially Prydaz)
  • Most of the trash did ZERO damage to non-tank players (in BfA a lot of trash randomly targets anyone in the party)
  • Most of the bosses didn’t do AOE damage to the whole party at the same time or had long DoT spells with short CDs that ended up on multiple players

Anything else I might have missed to mention but I will stress about able to swap gear AND legendaries again.

Some other changes have been good but “Grievous” affix is just simply too painful no matter how much damage nerf you can apply. Better come up with something different to make healers test their skills.

This is coming from a DPS player, I haven’t leveled up my priest healer yet but I totally feel how rough (not in a good fun but simply bad way) this affix is for healers. Unlike in Legion where you could blame others for “standing in the fire” to take damage and make it hard for healers during Grievous week, in BfA it’s just the random AOE damage throughout the whole dungeon that no one can simply avoid even if they don’t stand in fire.

3 Likes
104

I consider myself towards the top end of Casual M+ players - I have completed every dungeon at keystone 10 or higher within time and have done the majority of that with pug groups and have done a handful of runs up to a +14.

I believe the changes to Temple of Sethraliss in particular with 8.1 were massively beneficial, both the removal of one of the phases of the final boss and the slowing down of the laser maze.

The one issue I believe that is still very punishing and “feel bad” is the lack of an additional graveyard in Underrot that makes wiping in there feel more punishing than any other dungeon. While it was even worse when groups would skip the initial trash, it is still a very long run despite being able to mount in the dungeon (not sure why this is the case either tbqh). I feel like a graveyard at Cragmaw’s location after you kill it would be a reasonable solution, with the “shortcut” that is inaccessible before you kill the third boss feels almost as bad as running the whole route anyway, especially if you wipe on Unbound Abomination.

1 Like
106

I am a middle of the pack runner. Currently I do 6-8 comfortably, trying to push higher. I feel like the level of gear compared to what you fight is too punishing. I did a +9 Tol Dagor with the current affixes of Sanguine, Fortified, Grievous, and it was hell in the tight confined spaces. when we finished, only a couple minutes over the time, we got 365 gear, none of which was an upgrade for us. I feel gear is slightly under-tuned at higher affixes, but that is more of a personal thing (not confident in higher keys without higher gear, cant get higher gear without higher keys). I think a few item levels would be plenty, maybe 5-10. This is dis-regarding the ilvl boost in Season 2.

Also I feel the affix combinations should be looked at. I consider there to be two types, boss related, and trash related. This week was all about trash, making the bosses (for example my Tol Dagor) extremely easy and relatively trivial compared to the trash. I feel like there should be more combinations that spread difficulty through both types of fights, rather than slapping it all on one section. It would make all fights interesting and make you choose if one should be using CDs on hard trash or the boss, not just the trash. I had record kill times on all the bosses even not using most of my CDs, since they were all used on trash pulls. And we still missed the timer by a few minutes.

107

My first inclination is to say something like make it so keys don’t downgrade if some one leaves.

The problem with this is the same as with the deserter debuff, you don’t want to make it so that you can pressure someone into leaving if you don’t want to deplete your key.

1 Like
108

I wouldn’t mind the “difficulty” if we were able to get slightly more time on the timer, it would make up for some of the ridiculous affixes that cause some Trash Mobs to be more annoying than some bosses (KR, SotS etc).

It also seems weird to say, time a +10 you get 370 gear when REALLY you need higher ilvl to properly time it. (not saying the minimum cant be done, just weird you don’t really get upgrades unless RNG favors you for warforged/titanforge)

109

I just wanted to say a few things here from a 2400-2500 perspective:

  1. I agree that rogue is almost a necessity at the very highest end of M+.

  2. Shroud is way too strong. Death skips take a BREZ and around 45 seconds of your timer. I don’t quite understand how shroud compares to Brez. Multiple classes have Brez, and it is obtainable by anyone with Engineering, so basically everyone can have Brez.

  3. You can give lock Healthstones to everyone. Hearth to your garrison. Simple as that.

  4. Let’s assume that Shroud is the rogue “buff” to the group. It is still in line with DH and Monk 5% buffs, in that it is not replicable by anything else in game. I think the monk and dh buffs should be removed too.

  5. All top groups have rogues. There isn’t a run on front page of IO that doesn’t have a rogue in it.

  6. There are a number of reasons to bring a rogue other than shroud. 1) damage, 2) slow, 3) garrote, 4) tricks, 5) out of combat cc, 6) district, 7) invulns.

I can think of a lot of arguments to make about class balance, but I can’t really think of way to argue that Rogue isn’t extremely powerful in the current M+ meta. So much so that every top team runs one. Not saying you cant do well without it (I don’t run with a rogue in our group), however I think this makes us dumb more than
it makes us special.

3 Likes
110

Being able to skip trash packs is invaluable if you wanna make time for certain keys and dungeons. As a DH I can also tell you it’s incredible how much more I bring to the table than a paladin or warrior. There’s absolutely no reason not to bring dh+rogue+range(mage/hunter). It’s definitely an issue, which is why I think giving us a different way to “grind” higher item levels in dungeons without a timer might be a way to allow other combinations to shine. I wrote my suggestion and I hope Blizzard considers it because I don’t actually want to shake up the M+ meta that revolves around beating a timer.

111

Much of the feedback already here is great. So I won’t repeat what many of the others have already said.

But a few things… and for context, in Legion I was doing 19-21 keys and in BfA I am currently doing 10-13 keys

I don’t care that much about raiding. I’m on a small pop server with zero mythic raiding guilds alliance side. So m+ is my ONLY real gear progression. Please keep that in mind that for many folks m+ is far more enjoyable than raiding. To that end…

Given the Season 1 design, it would have been nice to see the weekly chest reward 385 instead of 380. It just seemed to scream “We want to purposely keep you one notch below mythic raiders”. Why? It also meant that the ONLY way to get the best weapons was via mythic raiding. verysadface

Second, WoW has become so very RNG heavy. It can be very frustrating and very depressing to open my chest on Tuesday with anticipation of an upgrade … only to find the same item I got last week, or a 380 pair of legs with bad stats when I’m wearing 390 legs with best stats.

I would like to see the opening the chest present us with a Loot Choice window. The presentation could be kind of of fancy, maybe something like the Artifact selection screen from Legion. But basically, looting the chest gives us THREE loot items to choose from. I’m fine with keeping the reward to one item - but give us a bit of AGENCY and let us choose from three possibilities - you already do this all the time with quests - it’s a long established thing that there are quests where you get to choose the reward that best serves you. Why can’t something as important as a once-a-week reward also give you some power to choose? So instead of rolling up one random reward, roll up three and let us choose one.

Next… the mythic keystone itself. Why does this even need to be tied to a specific dungeon? Again so random. Let’s give some power of choice back to the player. Let us CHOOSE where we want to have fun.

The keystone we get from completing a dungeon or from our chest should simply be a +XX level and that keystone should then work in ANY dungeon we choose to enter.

Maybe I’m a very casual player with very little time to play each week, and I just want to run one of the few dungeons I really know well. So I’ll choose to run Temple or Freehold or whatever- what does it matter that I don’t know King’s Rest very well and avoid it?

Or maybe I’m a warlock and REALLY want a balefire branch? EVERY chance I get I’ll run Waycrest with my key. Maybe I got a +5 from my chest, so I’ll do WM+5 and then WM+6 and then WM+7 etc etc.

Or maybe I’m chasing the Feats of Strength and I need to get my +10 or +15 of every dungeon. So yeah i’ll be looking to use my key to run KR+10 for sure.

Or maybe I’m jdotb and I just NEEEEED that Motherlode! So I’ll take my +21 key and into ML we go. And if we deplete, well then ML+20 here we come!

I really feel these two changes would give us a sense of control over our gameplay. Right now the m+ reward and keystone system change be very demoralizing and very much NOT fun and that should just not happen in a game. We should enjoy these. We should look forward to our weekly reward, we shouldn’t be depressed because we happen to have a “dead key”. If we want to farm one dungeon over and over chasing a specific item or if we want to run every dungeon and master them all we should have either as options.

3 Likes
112

Kings rest is tuned too tight on the timer. And the skips are almost non existent or too hard to pull off.

I suggest adding 5 mins to timer on Kings rest and increasing the enemy forces required. So this way it takes away the need to do skips on the bridge and still gives you more time.

Waycrest manor is really RNG dependent. My group can 2 chest a +16 if we get top left but the same group can fail by few seconds if we get top right. All while playing perfectly.

Underrot last boss is almost impossible to dps as a caster towards end of fight on volcanic weeks, since the amount of volcanos are based on mobs around you and there are a lot of corruption orbs on that fight.

Bobby Howels seems to be really inconsistent. Sometimes he runs away and comes back and starts casting fear. But other times he runs away and doesn’t come back and starts casting fear from other side of the room.

Explosive is still a really bad affix. Explosive and bolstering week I do not even bother with mythic plus.

Last boss in shrine has WAY too much HP after the nerf to the dmg debuff.

Teeming is really overtuned in amount of forces it requires. It currently requires 20% more so essentially 120%

113

I will give some short feedback now, and more later when I am off work, but I have to very much agree with the guy above that was talking about outright removing “this class only” type of buffs from M+… this includes the DH 5% magic damage debuff, monk 5% phys debuff, along with rogue shroud… all should be disallowed in M+ imo.

Stuff like that never ever should have been usable in M+ unless ALL melee classes got some sort of similar buff they can provide (perfectly fine for raiding imo, but a huge negative in M+). Since that is evidently not the case and certain melee specs offer nothing anywhere close to that, it massively tilts balance and fairness far too much.

So either one of two things needs to happen and fast:

  1. DH and monk debuffs need to be gone in M+. Shroud of concealment as well. (Shroud obviously being the biggest offender), it’s a trainwreck of balance for M+.

  2. Other melee specs / classes need to be given “debuff” type things similar to monk and DH if the monk and DH debuffs are going to be retained in M+. If other classes are not going to be given similar mob debuffs or some sort of perk of similar value, then the DH and monk 5% buffs should be discontinued in M+.

Either way though, shroud needs to be gone in regards to M+. Skips should then revolve around doing death skips at a high level. OR, some sort of “Shroud of concealment” type potion should be added into alchemy that other players can buy and use in their groups. That way shroud is more universal and not just a rogue requirement.

1 Like
114

In my opinion they need to just add a “Potion of Concealment” type of thing in alchemy that can be purchased by anyone and sold on the AH… that way Shroud can be universally usable… similar to the new engineering brez. Shroud being rogue-only as of right now is an abomination in regards to balance.

I think it adds some neat depth and strategy to M+, so I don’t really want to see it removed entirely… but having it only available to one class just doesn’t work; so it’s time to be universal.

115

M+ seems like a chore this expansion which really stinks as I enjoyed doing it in Legion. To echo some of the feedback above:

  • Too much trash in just about every dungeon.

  • Feels like mistakes are too punishing

  • Mobs too close where possibility of someone accidentally pulling them is very high

  • Rewards outside of weekly chest is lacking.

This last point is the one that personally hurts me the most. If the rewards at the end of the dungeons were good enough (say Titan Residuum was a guaranteed loot item), I would likely just deal with the other issues above. However, all issues above coupled with meh gear rewards makes running a dungeon outside of my weekly +10-11 seem less worthwhile.

I would also say, that running them on my low level alts seems very pointless. Given the gear drops in Warfronts, the scaling of gear in WQs, world bosses in WFs and those that spawn weekly, it feels like running a key less than 5-6 is pretty worthless and rather disappointing due to iLvl gear they drop.

5 Likes
116

As a 2100 tank, i would like to comment a bit on the shroud of concealment sitsuation.
This ability wouldn’t be so used if the dungeons in this game didn’t have completely overtuned trash at certain chokepoints of the dungeon while having a complete joke of trash before it.
For example in Atal Dazar, theres the double abomb double witch doctor pack infront of Vorkal. Those two giants do maaassive group wide damage while the witch doctors do random hexes that slow down the fight and high poison damage that can 1 shot dps if both target him on a high key.
Why would anyone ever do this pack when you can turn off your brain and do the juggurnaught pack on the left hand side of the map going towards priestess or even the middle dino pack? You dont nearly take as much damage, so you would obviously shroud that pack. A good Game designer would just simply nerf that stupid pack of trash instead of just nerfing or removing shroud, because at that point people wouldn’t feel so incentivized to skip it.Also, lets just laugh at the fact they nerfed the warlock portal skip into vorkal, further removing a reason to invite that class.
Lets not forget Underrot. Underrot trash going to first boss was straight up a waste of time when you could do skeleton packs and those giant squid boy double pulls at the end of underrot. How did blizzard fix it without requiring a rogue to simply shroud it? Nerf it and make it somewhat killable finally, while at the same time making them see shroud which i still don’t agree with.(mostly because it wasn’t in the patch notes)
I just think if blizzard would remove or nerf the difficult and more skipped trash, and remove % from temple/kings that you literally cannot get 100% force without shroud/death skip, rogue shroud wouldn’t be as required, and on a plus side you would clearly still see them at the top for their utility and damage.
Class Buffs: I concede that these are not healthy at all for the game. Particularly Demon hunters, which have practically no weakness when you compare them to say, a shadow priest or feral druid, and now boost 5% of magic damage to any teammember using magic. Monk healers for example, give 5% phy damage to a group, and if you can stack DH, rogue,BM hunter/some other phy dmg class i would argue their 5% damage given to them outweights the damage a disc priest would do during an entire dungeon run, even before the nerf. I think the most ironic part to this, is some classes you can just buy their class buff and others can’t. Like priest hp buff and warrior dmg buff you can buy 70% of its effectiveness from the AH but not a demon hunter or monk 5% buff.

2 Likes
117

Exactly. I run a druid and a shaman in 10’s, and the difficulty difference is astounding. Druids being able to remove poisons (like the sleep poison in Temple for example. Or the stacking poison dot in Siege) makes healing on my shaman on fortified weeks feel more difficult.

And while, yes, DPS can help dispels (and all healers being able to dispel everything would just be too op for some reason) you’re left with the inability of the base UI to handle that effectively, and many out of the box (like ElvUI) UI setups don’t even display debuffs by default for DPS characters unless they affec their damage.

I’m all for class differences, but it feels like the poison and disease schools are much more impactful to healer difficulty.

118

Some other things I would like to echo the sentiment of. I feel like mythic plus is very unrewarding overall right now. The necessity of war/titanforges is really not fun. I really, really don’t like opening the chest at the end, seeing that it isn’t war/titanforged, then automatically understanding it is not an upgrade.

Azerite armor being gated behind raiding feels bad. The “solution” is very slow, and random. Very few people are going to wait the insane amount of time it takes to buy a specific piece of high ilevel azerite gear that you want. I don’t really see why there is such a need to reinvent the wheel. Before, we could earn valor points, and we could choose our gear. That was awesome. Why not remove this heavy premium you have locked specific pieces behind? Having choice is fun. I don’t like all this randomness.

1 Like
119

Could you maybe give a little more feedback on healing through dungeons as a resto shaman? I think this is very important, as I notice how difficult certain weeks are for this spec. How have you felt handling grievous in particular?

120

First and foremost, having one subset of gear be gated just feels bad. I can farm rings all damn day. I have a bag full of them. My druid has all the trinkets for each of his 4 specs, but when it comes to head/shoulder/chest slot, most of my 7 characters (2 tanks, 2 healers, and 3 dps). Allow azerite gear to drop from the dungeon, OR put a scaling amount of risidium in the chest.

Second, the ability to re-roll “dead” keys was incredibly useful. I know, dungeon designers put a lot of time into, say, KR and Siege, but lets be honest. 40 minute dungeon vs 20 min Atal Dazar for the same reward, you’re going to do Atal every time. It makes getting a siege key feel punitive. Like I have to slog through it to get a new key, despite the outcome, even if there’s no gear for me in there.

Lastly, the difficulty system. I’m a fan of timed runs, and I think timed runs and leaderboards are a great thing. But, from a pure “progression” standpoint, I don’t think the timed runs make for a very compelling difficulty curve. More of an execution check. Similar to enrage timers on bosses, I suppose. I’d love to be able to progress keys by killing the dungeon. Maybe it doesn’t go UP in rank, but doesn’t go down, unless you leave. Something like that. Side effect, the “once a week, 700 IO” people would be able to do their ten and be done without having to “hitch a ride” on more leaderboard/IO focused people.

121

Ludwig needs to give enemy forces and not be treated as a boss fight.

1 Like
122

Like most things, it depends on the player/talents/etc. In my opinion, grievous is almost a none issue except on super spread bosses like the crawg in underrot. It’s a “gear check”, for sure, though, and naturally inefficient play can lead to some harrowing low-mana nightmares.

There’s a lot of misinformation out there about shaman dungeon healing capabilities. I DO feel more powerful as a dungeon healer on my druid during aoe damage (like Galavzat or whatever in Temple) but my shaman has more “punch” to handle spike damage (like the void bolts from Shrine second to last boss). And the utility a shaman healer brings (low timer interrupt, aoe root, tons of minor healing cds, purge) more than makes up for needing a group that knows they need to stay within a 25 yard circle.