Worst thing is people getting gear from incrusions equal to a mythic plus 10 so now we have a bunch of people running around with 370 plus item level who are not able to do mythic 4 let alone a ten, why are you giving out high item level gear for such easy content.
Do you just want people to over gear the content instead of learning the mechanics of the fights an such?
Now you can say hey we run mythic plus for the challenge an that’s awesome but shouldnt that challenge reward you/give you some incentive for doing it. Why would a player new to mythic plus try an push themselves to run a 10 when they can just do 4 world quest every day an get equal gear. What’s the point of trying to more difficult content if we get rewarded the same for some of the easiest content in the game.
But you say the cache we get on Tuesday makes it worth it. An yea we have a chance for something that may be an upgrade with rng on top of rng an how does that give you incentive for running more than 1 10 a week, from personal experience I only do my 10 each week an have since the start.
But it’s the end of the tier season 2 starts soon who cares about the gear, that’s cool an if you think like that then what’s the point of playing an gearing until the last patch of the xpac also incrusions an all the free hand out gear started with other a month still left of the first season.
This isnt about caring what gear other people have it’s about giving people a reason to do more difficult content it’s about getting people who dont care about mythic plus more interested because hey that’s a place I can actually improve my character.
Blizzard make doing the more difficult end game content actually worth doing over content that you have no chance of actually failing(wq, incrusions, warfronts) it’s ok for hard content to give the best rewards.
Love the attention/changes the dungeons have been getting. They’ve definitely made the runs more manageable.
My only feedback is to bring back the ability to delete keys. It gave players an option to reroll a key at the cost of losing a level.
Some dungeons just aren’t fun for some people. Some dungeons are just really annoying with certain affixes. Being able to make a trade to be able to run another dungeon without having to rebuild a key from multiple levels down was really helpful.
Having more people with gear to do content is great for the community. It gives us more options of people to choose from when the population is on a downward trend.
Raider io helps to provide the additional information beyond ilvl that makes forming a group possible.
If your group is not bad and you use almost all the time in combat ( aka healer sit to drink after pulls and you keep pulling )
you get an extra 10% damage with battleshout = 180 secs, sure there are some modifiers so i will reduce to 1/2 = 90 secs.
Shroud is 15 secs, lets say you use it twice = 30 secs.
Take a loot on how many underrot i did on this monk (before true sight change), I timed it everytime.
I don’t even take rogues on pugs because, skipping start was almost always a depletion due to players tunneling 2nd boss and wiping with lust, to return and do it properly without lust.
Of course when you trying that 15~18+ key every sec you gain will count and shroud is great there but since you only have 2 runs on m10+ what you need is to learn to pull trash in between lusts/hero and increase that ilvl 370 and you will have no problem with shroud.
Top players like Herudra are pulling 20k sustained as a prot war tank ( the new fathom tank ) … just raider io Herudra and see for yourself
I’ve got a few things to say myself about a few dungeons, affixes and the system in general.
-Siege of Boralus:
*The timer is too tight. Either it’s that or my group is doing something wrong. Maybe add 1 or 2 minutes?
*The tentacles on the last boss spawn too quickly. A demolisher dies, another spawns almost right away. This makes it unforgiving for immobile tanks such as DKs if the tentacles spawn on the other end of the area we are in. This is especially on Tyrannical weeks, it’s not too much of an issue on Fortified.
-King’s rest:
*Spit gold does too much damage.
*The beserker dot is still insane.
-Tyrannical:
*Some bosses have way too much HP during Tyrannical, making some bosses in 4 or 5 minute fights.
-Grievous:
*The changes done to it have made it worse to manage. When I could barely manage to convince a healer to do M+ on Grievous weeks, I now cannot convince any. The healers are just gone on Grievous weeks. And they come back for the next week. It still needs nerfs.
-System feedback:
*Why are we not allowed to change our key? I’ve been getting Tol Dagor on my main for 3 weeks in a row now. There should be something that allows us to maybe change our key maybe once a week? I don’t care if it’s just once a week, I just want the ability to change my key when it gets really bad or when a get the same exact dungeon 3 times in a row or something.
This comment is true not only for bfa dungeons for outdoor bfa zones as well. There seems to be a prevalence of trash placed on the roads or nearby to make it so there’s a tiny sliver of an area you can run through without aggroing stuff. This is a new mentality in bfa that I have never seen in previous expansions and makes the whole thing feel like a chore to avoid.
That’s exactly why i don’t even bother doing dailies on my priest, getting dazed/dismounted so much fun rather go as a tank and be godmode pulling 30 mobs np
-High burst damage.
-High ST damage.
-A variety of useful and unique utilities such as Distract, Sap, Blind, (Garrote) and more.
-Ability to stealth through mechanics.
-Strong mobility and movespeed.
-Strong survivability and varied, powerful defensive cooldowns.
You’re right. I simply can’t imagine why you’d want to bring a Rogue even if Shroud was nerfed or removed for mythic+.
No no, Shroud is actively hurting the mythic+ experience because above a 15, they become fairly necessary to complete the tight timers on a variety of dungeons on top of the utility and power a rogue bring. The latter is fine, the former is not.
So much so, that it’s likely the system is balanced around having it. The main problem with class balance right now is the necessity of Shroud and Havoc having overwhelming utility in comparison to other specs, it’s a disincentive to not build a group around them for mythic+.
Hello. I am a 2400+ player with higher end M+ experience S1 of BFA across multiple classes, Shadow Priest, Mage, Warlock, Elemental Shaman, etc.
I thought I would give some insight at least from my perspective from season 1.
Dead weeks: Currently some affixes are so over tuned that they result in the majority of the M+ community essentially taking off that week. Conversely, there are weeks that are so easy that everyone pushes those weeks to try and get as high as possible (Volcanic + Teeming & Skit + Bursting). I think that in general the weeks should be closer together, and there are some affixes, that I think are so generally “un-fun” that they should be removed entirely (I’m looking at you explosive). The detriment that this causes is that if you have too many dead weeks in a row, you risk alienating some of your most hardcore player base.
Ability to Delete Keys: Give us back the ability to delete keys to get new keys. This past week for instance, my group got somewhere in the 8-10 UR keys and 8-10 Kings Rest Keys. The downside of having keys go down a tier, and also having your next weeks key go down a tier is sufficient downside to deleting keys. Team’s shouldn’t have to deal with essentially dead Keys, where they have to drop them and then build them back up, only to get the same key over and over again. I can’t see any logic in removing the ability to delete keys.
Lack of Reward: The move to purchasable Azerite armor was a good move, and I think it will depend on how much each piece costs for me to establish whether it is reasonable. However, there shouldn’t be such a big gap between gear for High M+ and Mythic raids. I understand the argument that it takes 20 people to raid where is it only takes 5 to do Mythic +. However, it only takes 3 people to pvp as opposed 5 to do M+. Yet pvp has higher rewards (we can get into the argument of pvp > pve, but let’s put that aside for now). At the highest tier Mythic Raiding, PVP and M+ all have a certain level of difficulty, However, at a certain point, I shouldn’t have to raid only to get gear to push high keys in M+. PVP has a higher availability of gear than M+, yet takes less people, and takes less time? I would be fine if you made 410 drop from 15+, but you should still be able to get the same level of gear from high end M+ that you do for Mythic Raiding. Lastly, I think that there should be better season end rewards. Ok we have a 10 and 15 achievement… PVP and Raiding have: Gladiator Mounts; Unique Transmog; Unique Tier Sets; Titles; Better Gear; Tabards; Enchants? How has some form of this not been implemented into M+? Incentivize people more to play Mythic +. I really don’t know what the incentive is for pushing high keys in Mythic +, other than I enjoy it, and I think a vast majority of the WOW population feels the same.
Class Balance/Tuning: I understand that you are balancing classes for multiple different aspects of the game (Raiding, PVP, M+, etc.). However, there are multiple classes that are not even be considered in forming a M+ group, because of the current state of their class. Shadow Priests, Feral Druid, Enhancement Shaman, and Arms Warriors just to name a few. Now, I will admit some of this is perception, however, much of it is not. For instance compare a DH to an Arms Warrior. DH outclasses arms warrior in every single aspect. You can balance classes by providing some utility to classes that have very little. M+ is not all about damage but utility. Even at 2400 if I pug’d both my elemental shaman and my spriest I would get into groups way easier on my elemental shaman. Not because of damage, but because of utility. That being said, the perception of these off meta specs is currently so bad, that you will see really strong players who play off meta characters, being declined in pugs or pre-mades simply because XYZ brings more utility, even though they might be a sub par player. I think you need to look objectively at the classes and compare them to one another and ask yourselves (does X class need a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h skill were Y class has only a, b, and c skill). Some classes so outshine the others in terms of utility, that its just plain ridiculous. Until you solve this issue, you are going to continue to see M+ dominated by very few comps (DH, Rogue, Monk, (Mage/Boomkin), DK), at least at the highest tier. Lastly, I want to make a special note to the DH and Monk +5 % buff. Why… You will limit every really competitive comp to taking one (if not both of these) simply for this buff. Either spread the love, or remove it entirely.
Raider IO: I think Raider IO has aided a lot in continued interest in M+. I think that it creates competition between high end groups, and casuals alike, to push higher keys, and compete with one another. I really don’t understand how Blizzard has not brought this type of system in house (I would have purchased Raider IO and had them still run it, as it appears that most their issues come from Blizzard’s API issues), but this would allow for better integration into your system. I try to think about all the competitive games ranking systems. I understand the need to try and break the mold, but break the mold in game play, not in rating systems. Follow form, so we don’t have a situation like HOTS where there is a nonsensical rating system, that ultimately gets scrapped in favor of the more traditional fare.
Instance Tuning: Lastly, you have done a good job of late trying to balance some of the instances. However, there are some that still need a good hard look (SOTS (third boss is currently broken), KR (axes), TEMPLE (Galvazzt turret damage). You also can’t look at balancing these in a vacuum. Look at them with the affixes.
Give us an alternative “challenging” system without a timer.
Keys should have rarity associated with them (Normal - Epic - Legendary).
You should be able to stack several affixes and “forge” your own keys (professions maybe?).
The more affixes you stack, the more chance at better loot you get if you complete the dungeon.
The affixes drop like relics (from Legion) from content you do like WQs, pvp, raids, heroic dungeons etc.
Give us a player deterministic dungeon experience that isn’t all about esports “gogogo” mentality. Please.
So do I. I love getting together with friends and see if we can push a 15 in time. But sometimes I just want to into a dungeon, as dangerous it can be and experience it like in the good old days. Maybe it’s because it was timewalking week that I had such a blast with the old Cataclysm dungeons that I just miss that different mindset. Like, Karazhan was amazing as a long enduring experience that just allowed you to lose yourself for an hour and not worry about a timer.
Hi Culin, thanks for taking the time to comment about my post.
Sorry if i forgot your class -High burst damage.
Moonkin, Mage, Lock, War, Dh, Monk, Hunter, DK, ele shaman also have that.
-High ST damage.
Again all above.
-A variety of useful and unique utilities such as Distract, Sap, Blind, (Garrote) and more.
i could use any cc to cover distract or sap, such as poly, paralize, repentance, imprison, garrote is a convenience, the less damage is actually better than the silence unless pulling a caster to tank, which again you could ranged silence.
-Ability to stealth through mechanics.
Not really sure what you meant here, are you saying stealth like druid or mage can also do to “follow” the dog on freehold? or are you saying vanish that i could compare to iceblock, feighdeath, bladedance, etc style?
-Strong mobility and movespeed.
like fel rush, charge/leap, roll, blink … right?
-Strong survivability and varied, powerful defensive cooldowns.
Cloak of shadows got nerfed a lot and not work on some mechanics, dodge has to be used before skill cast and its a one time deal 2 mins cd, not like you can blade dance every melee skill every ~7 secs. Don’t get me wrong, survivability is still good, but its embarrassing compared on what it was or to a dh.
It would be silly to imagine that removing or preventing shroud would change m+ behavior, all it would do is replace shroud with a death run or just a tank skip/death depending where you doing it. Skip at the end of MOTHERLODE is a good example of that.
So, by removing shroud, all you get other than killing m+ for rogues, is another death run point and groups will be just like below:
To deathrun you need a bres, so now you need a lock, dk, druid … shaman
Due to the nature of encounters you want to have 2 classes capable of bressing to prevent the bresser died and its a wipe thing.
So your tank will most likely be a DK ( there are only 2 druid tanks on top 200 io score). If not, then you already locked 2 casters slots.
Since you pushing high keys your healer will most likely be a monk or a druid. Most groups pick a monk because they’re amazing and because they bring retarded stuff like ring of peace and 5% extra melee damage. ( any damage counts when pushing high stuff )
So now you have 3 dps slots and the need of getting a bres in there, that will most likely be a moonkin or a lock, so now you want to bring as many buffs as possible to “increase” dps
Since you have 1 dps slot locked the other will be either a mage to snare, cc further buff heals and casters, now you have 1 slot left.
Guess what melee buff casters and have crazy aoe and single damage alongside with a raid wide defensive cd, raid wide buff, insane sustain, aoe stun, godmode cd?
Yup, if you have a melee spot it will be a demonhunter, period.
So, please, explain to me why would you bring a rogue over a demonhunter, and how exactly did you change the m+ rushing / skipping culture by removing shroud?
Players skip stuff because its annoying / too long not because shroud is op, all you did was remove shroud for 1 bres and guarantee a DH on runs.
Lets also not forget about lock gate to skip undesired trash.
the need to kill enemy forces was introduced exactly because of skipping stuff back in legion ppl would just ignore everything that was not a boss.
If you want ppl to don’t skip, then link trash packs to boss pulls, just like it is on 2nd boss in King’s Rest ( pulling boss pulls the entire room ).
Like i said before, shroud is the rogue buff to group, no reason to bring one, ever, without it.
Overall I would say my mythic plus experience was improved. I felt changes on King’s rest, Siege, Temple, and Shrine and they all made the experience feel better, to me at least. Some of my group members not as much as they were used to a couple cheesy type strats that no longer worked. I feel correcting any issues that lead to cheese strategies is great, especially for long term play.
Reduced rollplay/wait times in dungeons is also good. I felt like there were some improvements on this, maybe in King’s Rest? Finding ways to minimize/eliminate this is great for mythic+. It’s not fun to be forced to wait for events to play out especially when you’re against a timer. Some examples that could still be improved: King’s Rest door opening and a couple of the Shrine boss intro dialogues.
In Siege, I preferred the original los mechanic to avoid fear from the ogres. This mechanic gave it a bit more variety versus other dungeons. The new mechanic is pretty much just get out of the swirly, which is already used quite frequently.
Well I wouldn’t want a format that made the dungeon longer than 30 minutes. Just make the dungeon different.
Like have each of the bosses turn into a modified version where you have to defend an objective.
Change up the trash, where maybe trash from OTHER dungeons replaces some of the packs in the current dungeon.
Sky’s the limit. But time increase to complete would be a huge turn-off for myself and I’d bet - a lot of adult players that don’t have much time on their hands.
My biggest gripes is just the affixes and how it can make a fun dungeon into absolute crap.
I honestly think Shrine is fine by itself, but add any kind of trash affix to it and it just becomes a cluster.
Globules should not be affected by any of the affixes. It’s just beyond dumb, and to even have some here and there being infested is crazy too (even though I know that’s gone in 2 weeks).
Sanguine is awful in many places just because of how tight some areas are (Waycrest) and because of how close most of these groups are. Add that with it being combo’d with Grevious, and it’s just a nightmare since one tick of damage will initiate Grevious.
I think some of the affixes shouldn’t be combo’d with each other. Teeming and Fort should never happen. Fort and Bolstering should never happen.
Also could quaking stop happening out of combat? I get that it’s on a timer, but it’s annoying as hell when rezzing or getting mana back. Hell, it’d be nice if Grevious would disappear after combat just like Necrotic does (even though I understand why that would probably never change).
And the last thing I can think of is Motherlode trash. I know some groups with a battle rez can pretty much skip all of the trash from the 3rd to the 4th boss, and that just feels wrong (and that trash is the worst in the dungeon).
I still really enjoy doing M+ and I think these dungeons have a really cool atmosphere to them, but some of these affixes just make me to not even bother with them just because of how hellish the dungeon will be.
I’d much like to see a change to the trash pack before Vokal in Atal’Dezar. It’s insanely punishing as a caster due to disease spots being placed on the ground twice as often as normal, multiple casters hitting the tank with deadly abilities and cc’ing others, and a shield protecting them. Yes i know all of these are able to be handled in some way, but if you don’t have the perfect comp for it you end up being forced to just skip. Imagine trying to get a pug to skip this trash without a rogue…
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