I tried to get into m+ mainly as a tank on my dk. For me it’s simple, the trash is ridiculous. Bad enough too learn all the bosses, but to memorize tons of trash pulls, I just don’t have enough time too learn enough to get past low keys.
2 Likes
Here is a question, who even thought of the affixes? We know already Blizzard took zero feedback from the PTR, or at least the feedback they took on was negligible.
I think with the way BfA went Blizzard did learn they need to listen to our feedback, hopefully they don’t forget and simply run riot later and do it all over again.
What they need to do is redo the whole bloody thing as soon as possible, wipe the slate clean, start again and take on our feedback on what affixes we need to put in.
Step one is allow us to kill our keys, you are right, some weeks we just don’t bother with certain dungeons and when our key inevitably hits that dungeon we either look for another persons key, or just stop and leave it for the week.
Step two is what you said, remove Tyrannical and Fort.
They should increase the difficulty in increments like Explosives comes first since it is a damn easy affix, not third when you are already dead. My last run in ToS +9 (tanking) last week with Volcanic as the third affix forced me to dodge NOTHING. I had zero volcanoes under my feet and had the easiest run in the world until we hit the fourth boss were we had 2 wipes, adjusted when to lust and passed easy.
Volcanic and Quaking should be first, teach players are low keys to dodge a mechanic or receive some interruptions, than we can move onto something like Bolstering or Teeming, or even switch them up so you can learn low key stuff in different weeks before moving to keys that combine them all together. Players can actually get the sense of what needs to be done with each individual affix on it’s own first.
They need to put their own scoring system in place, not on the website, but in game so we can see what players have completed, what time they have done and so on rather than just a number. Like bringing the website in game, we can see what group they completed the keys in, we can see if they were carried or whether they pulled their own weight.
As it stands you try join a group, say on my tank, there are 4 dungeons I have yet to complete, I never got my own key and my guild never had one up when I wanted to do M+, so my score is low and instead of looking at the fact I have done some +11 as a tank, and even if I was to try join those groups players would see my total score and knock me back rather than the fact I have already done this specific dungeon at a high key.
2 Likes
After reading all the posts up to this point and taking into account my own experiences I think the easiest and best way to help m+ is to start with the tyrannical/fortified tier it changes the balancing of affixes, encounters and trash and not for the better as a whole the encounter time to kill on their off weeks seem to be about right for both trash and bosses with the week they are creating such frustrating and not enjoyable long encounters.
I purpose what if tyrannical and fortified only did the damage or health component not both . You choose blizzard but I’d personally recommend the damage component. That way we don’t have wild swings for time to kills everything is still alternating what is more difficult may have to adjust instance timers or health with the change but it also would create a more level playing field for your other affixes to be tuned.
Also although I to want a way to reroll keys this is truely a symptom of dungeon design and their truely being keys that are not fun or doable for whatever reason a specific week. Take for example waycrest on sanguine the hallways are overly tight packed with little mobs that all drop puddles larger then the hallways you are fighting in so you have to pull back to more open spaces which is cool actually reminds me of old Los pulls in vanilla but we didn’t have this time pressure back then. Other people have expressed other ideas so many are good. I just want to play and have fun with friends and most everyone is quitting or not logging in at this point I feel like I’m in a black ops clan with a minor wow addiction.
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Fortified/Tyrannical at +2 really discourages inexperienced players from working up to do higher keys. It feels like your weeding people out before they have a chance to get familiar with the dungeons, and maybe that’s the point, I get that casual players aren’t going to be pushing high keys, but at the low end it should be accessible to anyone willing to try.
3 Likes
I also don’t like idea of seasonal affix. Just remove it and use what worked in Legion.
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I like the seasonal affix, I really do, it adds something that can make or break you depending on what you know and can do from the previous affixes and adds to the Legion way of doing things, but why in general M+ worked better in Legion and why the seasonal would have also worked there more so than here is that Fort and Tyrannical was the last affix, not the first.
This gave players a chance to learn the dungeon on M0, than learn how to do it at a harder % up to M3 and than add the affixes, a slow and gradual learning process to get yourself used to everything before simply jumping into the high keys.
Currently you get a group of players who don’t realise you need to step it up 4 gears from M0 > M2, and what happens next? They add some weak affix like volcanic at +7 which does nothing, but at the same time can kill you because you are too busy trying to keep alive on that hard tyrannical boss that you miss one volcano and die.
It should be the other way like Legion, they give you the affixes, make you learn the mechanics with added difficulty than hit you hard with this boss that wrecks you if you want to get into the 10+ range. Or the +9 fort week, done and dusted, now try it again with mobs that are 30% stronger and get the rewards that match.
3 Likes
I can think of some more later, this is literally just off the top of my head.
- As mentioned, the health on some bosses is just too extreme for what’s required. Final bosses in Atal’Dazar, Siege of Boralus, and Shrine of the Storm in particular.
After a certain level, the health of Viq’Goth in Siege of Boralus is way too punishing. Either the health of his tentacles needs to come down or their spawn time between each decreased. Mechanically it’s already an interesting fight- it just requires so much time available to complete. Most bosses in the game require from 2:30 to 4 minutes depending on the level of the key and boss difficulty but he requires at least 5:30 to 6 minutes available to even think of successfully completing the key at a 15 or beyond.
- The class balance is still pretty out there. Demon Hunter and Rogue are too far ahead in the meta. As an Arms Warrior, it’s frustrating to me where I bring a lot of great stuff to the table but am outmatched by DH in particular.
For the most part, all classes are viable to push higher content, or will have at least one spec that can perform well. There are some outliers like Resto Shaman, Enhancement Shaman, Feral Druids, Guardian Druid, Retribution Paladins and Survival Hunters who don’t bring enough to justify being part of composition.
But right now Demon Hunters and Rogues in particular are way too ahead of everyone else and it’s causing some issues.
Demon Hunters literally can do everything. They have high burst damage, high ST damage, great AOE and ST stuns, an immunity, mobility, godly CC, a strong debuff, and survivability. The only thing they have to really talent into is a slow. And that can be easily fixed by having a rogue or mage in the party.
Shroud feels too important for many of these mythics. Rogues themselves are fine, they’ve always been a high utility class and with high ST and AoE they will always be valued for mythic+ and raids. The utility they bring actually has gaps unlike Demon Hunter.
Shroud however just feels so necessary for a significant amount of mythic+ dungeons. Or rather, necessary to consistently make time. I think either it needs to get nerfed for mythic+ or you should look into making invisibility potions not so punishing.
3 Likes
There is the death run option which can add 5 deaths each time, but may end up being faster simply due to the adds you are skipping. Like everything in Shrine from the bridge on wards, you can clear enough before you get there than Soulstone or battle res past those 40 whatever smaller adds and save more time than you lost with the deaths.
The only issue with any of those options is if you die, you go back before those bosses and it is only really viable if you 100% know you can pass the boss or it is fort week and you are not sleeping during the fight.
Which in itself is an entire problem to look at, if we need to find these ways to pass dungeons, what is the reasoning for it? They should be tuned to allow us normal progression and still pass on time.
Adding to that is the fact pretty much every group now goes in with an iLVL higher than the rewards hoping to get that one missing items or a WF/TF upgrade for basically every reason in the many posts above. We need to be able to finish the dungeon on time at a lower iLVL.
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Oh right. Biggest issue: Key deletion getting taken away.
I can understand that it was a bug to delete your lower key and get a higher key, but being able to use it as a low-key (ha) way to reroll your key was way more beneficial.
Some weeks, you just want to do different dungeons. The ability to reroll your key was a lot of fun and my group used it to escape dungeons we’ve been consistently over-doing and get more varied runs in. Now we’re at the mercy of RNG and have to consistently just do whoever’s key is highest and most realistic to get the timer rather than a wide choice of dungeons.
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As long you dont revert the system the way it was back in legion (+10 affixes tyrannical, fortified etc) to higher keys, M+ will still remain dead and not for the majority of the player base.
This is my simple feedback for you devs.
2 Likes
Agreed, the fact that the majority of my group this week got Temple of Sethralis (yikes) at all levels was very frustrating. I don’t want to do Temple 7x to make sure we all have something other than temple. I could use other peoples’ keys but then I risk someone leaving and wasting however much time. It’s very frustrating to feel restricted to one specific dungeon when my entire M+ team gets the same dungeon. I’ve noticed across the duration of the expansion each week seems to target a specific dungeon and voiala, the entire guild has insert dungeon here keys for days. (not literally the entire guild, that was hyperbole to get the point across).
I’m just really frustrated by this as well.
2 Likes
2.1k io frost dk weighing in here.
AD: I think this dungeon is more or less ok. I think if anything the timer is too generous and it ends up being a free key. You could potentially pull it down to 28 min and still time it quite easily.
FH: This key is just a mess. The m0 bug makes it trivial. It’s too rogue favoured, particularly on weeks where you have the dog you have to push around. In terms of bosses, the first boss is really rough on melee in high tyrannical, you get one shot if you happen to get green slime thrown at you+shot within a sec and both are unavoidable. Eudora is by far the most broken member of council and makes it exceptionally difficult. Harlan is too easy, I don’t think I’ve ever wiped on the boss. Shark boss is mostly ok, I have some issue with sharks being thrown on melee arbitrarily.
KR: I was surprised the timer for this wasn’t increased along with UR and TD. For the most part the dungeon is fine, however the timer and lack of flexibility with pulls means that you basically need to brute force the whole dungeon with high dps. I think third boss needs a look at, some of the combos are extremely brutal, particularly on the last boss where you potentially have stuff like totems + charge + axes + poison nova all going off at the same time. Dungeon needs a bigger timer and less reliance on rogues to skip trash (you end up always over % without invis)
Shrine: I think this dungeon needs a lot of work too. I’d like to see the mobs on the bridge towards third boss have stealth detect, because right now you end up having to shroud/invis pot otherwise they are insanely annoying to fight. The trash is otherwise considerably better than it was in 8.0. Bosses in this dungeon feel exceptionally difficult to every other dungeon. First boss is trivial, but getting a 3x surging rush is extremely hard to dodge and ends up one shotting if even one hit on high tyrannical. I think this could be fixed with some arrows indicating their rush direction. Second boss needs to have the cast time increased or reduced casts, because as is you need discord and two melee dps in order to interrupt it properly. Third boss is slightly annoying in high tyrannical, I don’t particularly like having the MC mechanic be a dps check, because if you don’t kill it in time it’s basically a wipe. Fourth boss needs a hp nerf after the changes the whispers.
Siege - There’s a lot of things I don’t like about this dungeon. I appreciate the spotter mechanic, but at the same time keeping it around makes me feel incredibly useless a dps, since we’re basically waiting for the spotter to kill the trash for us. I think the spotters need to have points where they can no longer cross. Fourth boss in siege is exceptionally more difficult than everything else. There’s so many problems with the boss I don’t know where to start, it just needs an overall nerf. I’ve seen so many well run keys go to crap because someone got hit by a crappy set of puddles.
Temple: This dungeon is a lot better than it was in 8.0. My only thought is that trash at the start needs stealth detect or the % trash required needs to be upped. As is, you need a rogue to push this dungeon otherwise you end up having to clear a lot of trash you don’t need.
ML: Trash in this dungeon is so badly design. The trash from 2nd-4th boss is so much more difficult than anything preceding. Reduce the amount of trash at the start and nerf some of the trash after. Or better yet, reduce a lot of the trash across the board and reduce the timer, right now the dungeon just feels like a huge trash grind.
UR: This is considerably better after the timer increase and the nerf to the first boss. I dislike the amount of accidental pulls this dungeon has, could possibly fix with better mob spacing.
TD: I think first boss hp needs a bit of a nerf, not because he’s difficult, it just takes way too long on tyrannical. Dungeon has been fixed substantially since 8.0 though, not a lot of complaints now. Would like less rogue dependence.
WCM: I like the novelty of door system, but at the same time the left path is a free timer while anything on either of the right up or down options is substantially harder. This is even more evident on necrotic and sanguine weeks, where you have very little room to move if you go right side first. It’s also much easier to be selective with trash on the left hand path, whereas on the right you can very easily go over %. Bosses are generally solid. I think there needs to be a bigger dmg buff (20%?) if the adds go in on pig boss, because right now you can basically ignore them with no consequence. Lord and lady waycrest feels overtuned, particularly when both are out on high tyrannical keys. There’s just not much you can do as a tank to survive if the second part of the encounter goes on too long and you have no mitigation left.
1 Like
A note on tanks: running TD with the current sanguine prefix we lost at good 10 minutes because we were struggling to move mobs out of the pools. Without a knock back or someway to pull mobs to them, non-DK tanks are still basically DOA for Mythic+. While I could have used fear as a warlock that doesn’t work for all mobs and has a high probability of pulling extra and unwanted.
On shroud skips: Just add true-sight to some of the mobs
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How would you guys feel about a + item that simply let’s you into an M+ dungeon, no restriction on what place you go except the lowest key your group has? So your M7 key will get you into all dungeons all the time, you pass on time it goes to +8, you pass out of time it drops to +6, everyone in your group needs a +6 key to than try push to higher.
Or simply just have a key of your own that lets you in wherever if you want to start a group with no restrictions on the team. Who cares if people run the same dungeon over and over again, it’s our time we should technically be allowed to run any dungeon we want and not wait around until that one dude in your guild is online and 8 people want to join his group.
2 Likes
I currently run 14 - 16 level keys. m+ is one of my favorite aspects of the game. I disagree that keys were better in legion. They were easier in Legion. Easier does not mean better. Here’s my thoughts:
Temple - The nerfs to this dungeon were fantastic. It’s still challenging, particularly on Tyrannical weeks, but is much more fun and I no longer ignore keys I get for it. The one thing that bothers me is that the orb gauntlet before the last boss stacks necrotic from the small adds. This forces cheese mechanics, otherwise it either kills the timer or is pretty much impossible.
King’s Rest - This dungeon needs to be tuned. The nerf to the gold adds was fantastic, but the dot from the axe boss is nearly a death sentence on tyrannical. Some healers are borderline incapable of healing it while being forced to move to dodge axes. Outside of that dot, I actually find the bosses there some of my favorites in the game.
Shrine - Another dungeon that needs to be tuned, or maybe just have the timer extended. I can’t pinpoint exactly what makes this dungeon so unforgiving, but it always seems so difficult to hit the timer.
Shroud of Concealment - I have nothing against rogues, but this ability is so overpowered it’s almost like cheating. Top groups HAVE to have a rogue to compete. It’s just plain stupid. Shroud needs to be removed from m+. Death runs and invis pots are fine because it puts everyone on an equal playing field.
DPS Warriors and Guardian Druids - These two classes need better utility, and guardian needs to better survivability. They are both currently the most useless m+ classes. Can they do a +10? Absolutely. But once you go above +15, you almost never see them outside of guild runs.
1 Like
i mainly run 15+ keys, i love m+ and how you have always something to push, i’m ok with “difficulty” getting to a point where you cannot overcome, it should have a limit afterall, however there are some disruptive gameplay stuff that needs to be addressed.
Sanguine has to change, maybe reducing pool size, add a limit on how much it can heal before disappearing its stupid on indoor content ( tol dagor, WCM ) and giants pulls like Sots.
I’m ok with tyrannical bosses, like i said before, there should be a limit on how high you can go.
Now Fortified is a completely different story, its way overtuned and slowdowns keys way too much compared to tyrannical, i feel it should scale less ( higher key multiplier * flat fort modifier ), maybe reduce fort modifier?
There are some dg bosses fight that needs to change but other players pretty much pointed it all already
I believe these changes on fort, sanguine would help increase player participation, joy and overall balance.
ps: i play rogue, bm monk, disc priest, DH
Quote Fyrelocked: Shroud of Concealment - I have nothing against rogues, but this ability is so overpowered it’s almost like cheating. Top groups HAVE to have a rogue to compete. It’s just plain stupid. Shroud needs to be removed from m+. Death runs and invis pots are fine because it puts everyone on an equal playing field.
Please explain to me how come a death run ( that require a bres or reincarn ) is the same for everyone , are we giving bres to war, rogues, monk, etc? Can we give lock healthstones to all classes or remove it from locks? how about grip? knockbacks? spot heals?
What some players don’t realize is shroud is the rogue “buff” to group.
War, mage, priest, paly add buffs, you can scroll a 7% ( minus paly mana buff ), but that will “cost you some time” on your key.
Top groups almost always also have a Monk to bring an extra 5% physical damage taken and DH for an extra 5% magic damage taken, theses debuffs cannot be replaced and not having it will also “cost you some time”.
Without shroud there’s 0 reason to bring a rogue, you can go around with a invis potion but that will also “cost you some time”
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t accurate. If I use battle shout on my warrior, I don’t get to skip to the first boss of shrine with no penalty after two trash packs. I don’t get to later skip the bridge. If this “group buff” is equivalent to others, then let’s give rogues a physical/magic damage debuff, and be done with shroud in keys. It’s broken. Everyone knows it is, and anyone who think it isn’t is kidding themselves.
7 Likes
I’m a 2k IO healer, and over-all I love m+ this expansion, it’s been very challenging and very rewarding, and some of the recent tuning that you’ve done has been great. here is some specific feedback I have regarding the dungeons.
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Shrine - As many have already pointed out, the timer seems way too tight. The bosses combined with the mini bosses on tyrannical just have soo much HP. The council fight is extremely difficult to manage even for a coordinated group, so I can’t imagine doing this in pugs. And as discussed the last boss has such a large health pool.
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Freehold - Eudora and First boss are very punishing on high tyrannical. The powdershots can easily delete dps or healer if you get unlucky RNG and are targeted multiple times. We’ve also noticed that with last week’s affixes the combination of blackout barrel with grapeshot both being cast at the same time is just really bad RNG, but it was happening multiple times for us, forcing the dps to eat the grapeshot while trying to breakout the person from barrel.
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Siege - On the alliance side, this dungeon seems over-tuned for the early trash. The dockhounds are nearing one-shot territory. And in general the timer seems very tight on high tyrannical due to the length of the boss fights.
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Waycrest - RNG with what route you get ruining the key is just not fun. Make all routes more equal in terms of trash.
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King’s Rest - Gold spits are do extremely high damage per tick, would be nice to see this slightly tuned. Same with severing axe.
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Temple - The dungeon did receive a lot of nice updates, but from a healer’s perspective it would be nice to see a some slight tweaks to Adderis/Asphix as well as Galvazt. First boss on tyrannical is extremely difficult for healing when dealing with odd overlaps in abilities. For example getting conduction right as Static Shock is going out. Or having conduction on you, so you run out of the group, only to be immediately targeted by cyclone strike, doesn’t give you many options. It would be nice to see a bit more breathing room with the abilities. And galvazt being one of the few healer checks, with it already being so difficult on an easy week, it’s nearly impossible on weeks with grevious, quaking, etc, where it requires even more HPS output. I can’t think of any fight in legion that required this amount of output as a healer in M+.
53 Likes
You’re absolutely right. Except that there are also four classes with a brez. And only one with shroud. There is also no scroll for shroud. DH are not brought solely for the 5% damage buff. They’re brought for multiple abilities (imprison, taunt, darkness, crazy aoe, etc.). Head on over to raider.io and look at the top groups. Maybe half of them have a monk. Every single one has a rogue. Every. Single. One. They also have a DH but that’s not due to one single OP ability.
And if you think no one will take a rogue, that’s wrong. All it does is put them at the level of like a shaman. They still have stuns, slows, CC, cheat death, and a multitude of utility.
Add a scroll for shroud and I’ll retract my statement.
3 Likes