With the release of Embers of Neltharion, we have made several updates regarding Mythic+.
What has your experience been like so far? Let us know in this thread, and we greatly appreciate all of your feedback!
With the release of Embers of Neltharion, we have made several updates regarding Mythic+.
What has your experience been like so far? Let us know in this thread, and we greatly appreciate all of your feedback!
M+ feels better than season 1! My biggest gripe remains here Raid/Party wide utility
And the fact that people can leave groups whenever they feel like it, without any sort of penalty.
I do enjoy the fact that a lot of the dungeons are actively getting looked at and changing in a way that mechanics and affixes don’t feel overwhelming.
Oh and I really appreciate Razsageth not screeching in my ears every 3 minutes or so <3
M+ this week has been a trying experience for me.
A healthy mix of guild and pug groups, I’ve noticed a few specific pain points that could do with some improving.
In no particular order…
Grand Vizier (1st boss VP)
The lightning pool under the boss is very hard to see the edge of. The tornados that are around the outside and move in are very easy to see because of the dark circle, perhaps the effect under the boss could be changed to a similar visual? I’ve accidentally touched the lightning under the boss while dodging the balls several times.
Brackenhide Hollow 1st boss
Ran this in a full melee comp this week, and maybe its our fault for not having any ranged, but it felt impossible to dodge the whirlwind while maintaining uptime on the bosses. I assume this is unlikely to be changed and will probably be looked at as a “get good” comment, but the targetting of the ability felt off as he would randomly swap targets without warning.
Neltharion’s Lair - Avalanche ability
Both on the trash before the 2nd boss and on Ularogg as well the targetting of Avalanche is not obvious and hard to predict. There is no ground indicator to know how far to run away from the falling rocks, and again in a heavy melee composition it was overly difficult to survive this mechanic due to not being able to see where rocks are falling.
I’m sure I’m missing a few but these were the worst 3 of the week for me.
Beyond that… the biggest issue remains to be leavers. The worst example for me this week was a single wipe on the last boss of Neltharus, the timer hadn’t quite expired but we wouldn’t be able to time the key and the healer left after the single wipe. It’s obviously incredibly frustrating to just waste 30 minutes and get absolutely nothing for it. I would like to see a leaver system implemented in some way. I think this system could take some loose motivation from League of Legends *(1) in that there should be a “surrender” option so a consensual reset wouldn’t be penalized, but 1 person leaving pre-emptively would face some form of punishment (maybe they don’t get any crests from their next key at the crest level of the key left?)
I think a simple UI element could be added for this option as well, maybe only accessible by the group leader to avoid spamming?
*(1) The surrender system in LoL, for anyone who doesn’t know allows your team to surrender assuming a majority vote (which goes from 5-0 early in the game to 4-1 later in the game.
Can a change be implemented to award lower quality crests once you max out the crests from that difficulty?
Having to do lower level keys to max out crests is going to get annoying really fast.
Supposedly there has been a change to avalanche! Great to see!
Could you please remove the training dummies in Freehold? My minions and Starfall go on it…
Hi, I just wanted to say that I am equal parts surprised and impressed with the frequency of the dungeon tuning so far. The thing I was dreading most about this season was waiting two months for the dungeons to feel playable, and you guys have really outdone yourselves listening to feedback this time around. The disparity in difficulty between the hardest and easiest dungeon is already closing in to be only a moderate difference (a huge improvement from last season), and I am excited to see the changes to come.
I also second this:
Spamming 11s when I would rather do 20s for gear does not feel great.
Small QoL recommendation on behalf of my Boomkin homies: Can pulsar stacks please clear once the key is put in? It seems miserable to stack up on a target dummy before every dungeon.
I really enjoyed this season of M+. The tuning felt great for experienced players, apart from a few exceptions that have mostly been resolved. I’m just a little worried about the more casual audience - some skills and mechanics aren’t conveyed very well and the tuning goal might be a bit challenging if it’s expected to be within everyone’s reach to time a keystone on level 20 on every dungeon.
Esp. Neltharus seems rough for thoses since the timer feels very tight and bosses and trash get out of hand easily in respective weeks (fortified/tyranical).
As for Brackenhide Hollow, there is a specific mob that will cause a lot of trouble and confusion for the pugs. https://www.wowhead.com/npc=187033/stinkbreath
His cone-shaped Stink Breath ability is, in my honest opinion, hard to spot and understood based on visuals alone.
You basiclly only see it on his mouth and when it hits you. There is no visual travel or range indicator on this ability. This makes it hard to spot and postioning harder then it should be.
I would really like to see a change here.
It’s already been said by a few other people already but I feel like it’s so important that I feel the need to touch on it again. People who leave your keys or purposely do things to fail your key deserve some kind of punishment. Not saying to outright ban people or something so severe but it feels so bad having the tank or healer drop because of something silly and waste everyone’s time with zero consequences.
I would love some kind of system in-game that let’s you give people accolades for being respectful or an amazing team player. Similar to overwatch where after the game/dungeon is over you can give people ratings on performance or for being a good team player/shotcaller or leader. Maybe it would add more meaning than just a raider IO score or a mythic score.
My Feedback regarding the dungeons.
I’ve already done the KSM and these are just my general opinions in regards to the dungeons, i do hope my feedback does help shape the future better.
Overall advice for all the dungeons though: The Debuffs will state the wrong damage amounts, such as crossbowmen from Brackenhide Hollow, their bleed debuff description states about 12.5k damage every 1.5seconds but the actual bleed is hitting abouty 62.5k on a 15 this tyrannical week.
I’ll go through my experiences dungeon by dungeon though.
1st: Brackenhide Hollow. There’s not too much feedback i would probably have.
My first suggestion would be for Gashtooth, the marked for butchery can be lethal in high keys, but its just mianly because Gashtooth doesn’t skip leg day and runs at our healers every first opportunity they get.
For my second dungeon of choice i will talk about Freehold.
Freehold feels like a definite nostalgia trip from pushing keys back in BFA. The packs of adds are in perfect proportions for players to cleave through.
In regards to bosses though, i’ve only got issues with the council and the ring of booty encounter.
During the BFA Freehold, it was completely random which one of the three pirates could follow you, though i don’t know if its bad RNG or its completely set now but every freehold key i’ve ran, the follower has been Captain Jolly.
I would like to see the return of either getting Captain Raoul or Captain Eudora just randomly assigned to make the dungeon experience more interesting for us.
In Ring of Booty i’ve had an incident where i was “stun locked” by a shell that was hitting me multiple times, not able to get out the way as the knockback actually caused me to be hit multiple times. What i think could be changed here is rather than a knock back, the shellshock when it hits a player will send them jumping up in place while the shell passes through underneath them.
No comment for Harlan Sweete, maybe make his neck more visible.
The third one will be halls of infusion.
I’ve done a halls key on 15, 16 and attempted even an 18 (though i was unable to time that one.) and i think the most important feedback i could give is.
with the adds towards the first bosses, the containment devices still hurt a ton.
Watcher Iredus phases at half health and will start channeling an ability to gather power. during this phase, players will kite the titan orbs he spawns to him to cancel the channel out. What hurts a ton though isn’t this phase itself but rather what comes after. it encourages players to save lust to after the intermission phase so that they can burn the boss before they run out of cooldowns as the puddle sizes become a little difficult to manage. its handy that he can only gain a max of 20 stacks on an intermission phase but even with movement abilities, at 20% the pools created by Power overload can be fatal to classes without mobility.
The change here i would probably like to see, increase the timer by 0.5s for siphon power, this will let guilds and runs to have a bit more breathing room.
The other change which could benefit players majorly would be to increase the timer on Power Field which is left by Power Overload, rather than 1 second intervals, raise it by 0.2s to 1.2s intervals where players will tick for damage.
No comment for Gulping Goliath.
No Comment for Khajin
On the way from Khajin to Primal Tsunami, we walk down a corridor where at the end we meet Infuser Sariya. She, HURTS.
With high verse, i’ve seen tanks get slapped for 300k+ Damage. Inundate is pretty much mandatory for players to have a defensive up or else 80% HP is deleted in the snap of a finger. I can understand as it is a tyrannical week that the add will hurt but i have a feeling there’s a way to change it slightly while still preserving the sense of danger.
No comment for Primal Tsunami.
No Comment for Neltharus, it’s a good dungeon, the balancing is great
No comments for UR either.
For Uldaman, My only feedback i could provide is to be able to LoS Earthquake with the pillars in the room with the Construct.
Also i found a bug in this Emberon Fight. Most likely not intended but Sometimes Evokers can use the Hover ability to go through the Purging flames without taking any damage. I’ve been able to do this once and i’ve got the footage of said event happening with MedalTV https://medal.tv/games/world-of-warcraft/clips/1a7gyF8WNC4FYI/d1337V7MtikG?invite=cr-MSxLZVcsNjM4NTQ2MzEs
I would also like to see a slight nerf to the Hail of stone damage as it is not interruptible and requires a stun / CC.
That is all my feedback for Uldaman.
For NL / Nelth Lair, I’ve got a few bits of feedback i would love to have implemented.
No comment for first boss
On the way to the second boss though, we meet some Drogbar Breakers. They have an ability called Avalanche which hits like a truck. Anyone can agree its an annoying ability, mainly because of its ability to one-shot players if they so choose to stack up to make aoe healing easier for healers. Avalanche is an instant ability when it is casted, there’s no prep time, players are required to move the moment the ability is started to be cast because if you’re not already moving, you’re guaranteed to be hit for massive damage.
The way i would like to see this be changed for the benefit of the players is, rather than be instantly casted when Avalanche is complete, Maybe it creates a swirly for 2 seconds before starting to rain down the boulder on top of it. this gives players a chance to get out of it at the least, even if it is a slim one. It’ll drastically improve the success rate people have with Neltharions Lair keys.
With the Drogbar Pelters: Increase pelting time by 0.1s, all healers will thank you if there’s even the softest increase to this timer.
no comment for boss.
For Naraxas: need to make adds CC-able
No comment for Dargrul.
For Vortex Pinnacle: i would like to just request one change.
Skyfall Nova cast time be increase to 1.1s and that the skyfall Nova be unaffected by Tyrannical modifiers. That is my only change i would like to request.
That is all my feedback regarding the Dragonflight Season 2 dungeons.
At first glance this seems like a great idea - but it can easily go wrong.
Who’s to say what constitutes a good/bad player? Are you bad because you do low damage or because you missed 1 interrupt? Are you good because you didn’t die at all or because you clutched up and made something work?
Context is very important, and I feel like a system like this would be heavily abused. One person can be the problem in a key and give everyone else a bad rating for doing nothing wrong.
I think there just needs to be an invisible penalty applied. Lockout Crest awards for X number of runs or something
Some feedback regarding Mythic+ in S2 of Dragonflight.
And finally, I’d like to request an update to the Mythic+ timer that’s native in WoW (as part of your ongoing UI refresh).
I’d also love the ability to see drops from a certain level of M+ in the dungeon journal.
Having done a number of keys in the 16-20 range across the weeks and dungeons I have feedback to give on some of the bosses or pain points of each of the dungeons. Some are in more tricky spots than others balance wise.
EDIT: I came back to edit this after doing another 20 this week and this boss is out of control. The rock blasts do a ton of damage to people. Marked For Butchery is damn close to a death sentence, the snowballing is insane with both gash frenzy serving as a grevious mechanic and the predatory instincts kicking in. This boss is WAY harder than all of the other bosses I’ve done on 20 this week.
Halls of Infusion
Khajin the Unyielding:
Uldaman: Legacy of Tyr
-Everything hits crazy hard in here. The earthquake should be an LoS mechanic considering how much it does as well as the pillars directly around it. Hail of Stone does a ton of damage that needs stun level cc to interrupt. Curse of Stone is basically an insta-kill if it isn’t interrupted. The debuff from the Infinite Timereavers not only do a ton of damage but also cause a haste loss.
Sky Cap’n Kragg:
Council o’ Captains:
Cragmaw the Infested:
Checkpoints and “Triple Threat”
The topic of checkpoints in dungeons have come up a lot in discussion lately and while we have seen some improvements (move speed bonuses) to some of the worse ones I think Blizzard should reconsider their stance on checkpoints in M+. When your team full wipes you are punished 3 times over by the game.
1: Each death subtracts 5 seconds from the timer, assuming a full wipe that is automatically 25 seconds off the timer.
2: The entire party has to run back from wherever the respawn point is. Running from the start of Neltharus to the Forgemaster for example even with the cooking speed boost is another minute or two off the timer.
3: Whatever you were fighting resets to full health. If you wipe on a boss at 5% all the time you spent on that boss is also lost.
Obviously full wiping should be punishing but it is insane how much you can be punished for it. The easiest solution would be to just make it so that once a boss is defeated that is your new respawn point. We claimed that area, it is theoretically safe now, no longer “enemy territory”. Also with a system like M+ in place I don’t feel like immersion and aesthetic should take priority over gameplay and enjoyment.
Mythic+ Season 2 is the best its been in a long time.
I’ve said it once and I will say it again. These affixes are not fun.
On fort weeks the bosses are a joke, and on tyrannical weeks trash feels non-existent.
Please consider removing them next season.
Not only were some bosses very difficult on high keys this week, but if you wipe you are punished further by having the Exhaustion debuff and you have to wait for CDs to come back. I don’t know if a hard reset on Exhaustion/CDs like in raid would be appropriate for M+, but M+ is on a timer and raid isn’t. The punishment is excessively severe.
I did 2 Brackenhide hollow runs last night. The first the checkpoint never saved so we had to run from the start to the last boss every time we wipes. The second only the checkpoint after boss #2 (Treemouth) activated.
My feeback remains the same as in my original post but I will try to change a few things.
From my point of view there are three major areas that need to be addressed and improved and these are:
On my post below I will attempt to describe the issues and potentially offer a couple of ideas on how things can move forward.
Design, Innovation and Variability of the dungeons:
First, I would like to mention the design of dungeons.
For me so far this expansion does not offer any dungeons that I could call favourite. Instead, it feels like dungeons lack innovation, new or special mechanics and notable design.
I was always amazed by dungeons like Dire Maul, Blackfathom Deeps, Gnomeregan, Old Hillsbrad Foothills, The Black Morass, The Culling of Stratholme, Deadmines, Well of Eternity, Stormstout Brewery, Grimrail Depot, Iron Docks, Court of Stars and more. They all offered unique design and unique mechanics. Of course, there are tons of dungeon in the game now, but I haven’t been impressed by the DF ones.
Something that bothers me a lot is that we have been introduced to only 8 new dungeons for this expansion. For reference I will throw a comparison per expansion:
Now out of those 8 new dungeons we get to play in M+ just 4 of them per season, plus 4 old ones. The idea is ok but for someone like me who has been playing the game for such a long time, I would rather play new dungeons for the entire expansion. Playing the same old ones for a second expansion was always weird for me, and now feels even less interesting since they haven’t been redesigned. Someone might say I do not wanna play 8 dungeons for 2+ years and that I understand too. But I prefer to play 8 new rather that 4 and 4 old which 4 old I was already playing for 2 years in the previous expansions. Makes absolutely no sense. Maybe for new players is better but for someone who is playing since the first day of WoW it is not fun.
Again, for reference I will say that I am not playing Diablo much as I don’t like repetitive content much.
Instead, I always liked the lore/story development in the Warcraft franchise.
Cultivation of an unhealthy mentality and environment in dungeons
As it stands, the game has created a very unfriendly and unhealthy environment over the past years due to how M+ works.
I will try to describe my experience.
I do not consider myself a top player. I am doing many mistakes, mostly in rotation and dps/hps output but I consider myself capable to survive tough fights and use more of my skills/abilities that the game offers to any of the class/specs I am playing.
The first season that just ended my Mage was at 419 item level and my Warrior at 416 item level. The Mage had 2685 rating, and the Warrior had 2619. Now I am standing in a similar situation with both character above 440 item level and 2,6k rating. Same deal.
For me to be able to get in a 20 with a random group was very unpleasant situation. I had to wait for ages for a group to form and even if I manage to get into a group, the moment 1 player fails the group disbands and never finishes the key.
At this point I would like to mention that I am in a guild with 400+ accounts, most of them active players. When we are doing keys with our guildies the second part of the problem doesn’t exist as people would be glad to finish any key regardless. However, on the odd times that I need to pug something the experience is dreadful and I can only imagine of how much worse this will be for people that are not in high populated guilds.
On top of that I would like to mention that every group or group leader or tank have different ways to complete the dungeon. They use bloodlust/heroism in different parts of the dungeons, or they do different paths, with different skips, etc.
Many times, I find myself in the situation where people will go literally mad at me or any other member of the group, just because they failed using bl/hero or they went from a different path or anything similar, even though it has not been explained to them.
Generally, my experience with pugging Mythic+ more than half of the times was unpleasant rather than enjoyable. Most of the times the key will either just fail, or people will get mad about it.
I understand that you cannot succeed in everything, but having this environment if far from fun when you are playing a game to have exactly that, fun.
Players being forced into content due to the reward system.
Currently the game offers 3 distinct modes when it comes to end game content.
Now, one could argue that because Raid & Mythic+ are both PVE modes, they should also fall under the same umbrella.
However, in reality, they are very different in their design, purpose, type of difficulty, time investment requirements and mentality.
Few of the most notable differences are:
And they list could continue but I will leave it at that.
As a consequence of those differences, there are many players out there that get attracted to either one of those modes or the other. Yes, there are people that enjoy both and also there are people that want to have one of those modes as their main mode of playing and have the other one as the one they play at the end of a tier let’s say.
For example, once you have achieved the things you want in Mythic + you can do bit of raiding or PVP to get achievements, maybe a mount etc.
Also, one should consider time restrictions. Unless you are not working, Raiding & doing Mythic+ at the same time is extremely time consuming and it is something that in the current content is mandatory for anyone that wants to Raid Mythic mode.
My Guild raids 3 evenings every week. That leaves 4 more evenings for me to do Mythic+. And that if I spend all my 4 remaining evenings to play the game.
So, let’s say that I like to be a competitive raider and I want to help my team as much as I can. Or that my team has as requirement to be at a certain item level, as they struggle on dps with some of the bosses.
In any of these cases I will have to maximize my chances with loot. So, I will have to do 8x20s. That’s about 5 hours of playing Mythic+ if all of the keys I do are straight into 20 and they are all successful or pugged.
This also means that after doing all that there is not enough time to do other, more relaxing things, I enjoy in game like mount hunting and achievements etc.
So, a lot of people are now forced to spend a significant portion of their time in a week, into an activity they do not enjoy, in order to be able to perform in the activity they do enjoy.
Another unfortunate consequence of people being forced into content is that we have lost a few good raiders due to the fact that they either do not like Mythic+ at all, or do not have the time to spend both for Raiding and M+. These are skilled, good and reliable players that were driven off from Raiding due to the pressure of M+.
There is also the issue of people that do not like Raiding but get into a Guild and a Team just to get the gear they want from Raids for Mythic+ purposes. They don’t care about the guild, about building teamwork, or the team’s development, resulting in ruining teams that have been running Mythic Raids, leaving them midtier etc, after they got all the items they need out of the team.
As I mentioned at the start of my post my goal is to open a constructive discussion and taking that into consideration, I would propose the following:
There will always be some cross contamination in slots like rings maybe etc like it happens with pvp now but that would be minimal.
If you do all of the above then you can have ilvl rewards that are reflective and relevant to the content without having anyone from any side PvP, Raiding, Mythic+ feeling they get the sort end of the stick.
Also, it will help immensely with balancing the game both for Raiding & Mythic + as right now there are a lot of classes that are not even considered for picking in a group when it comes to Raiding or Mythic+.
As a closing comment I would like to mention Challenge modes.
With everyone that I have discussed, that has experienced Challenge Modes in Pandaria and WoD, they all told me the same thing. They all enjoyed thoroughly and were proud and happy to have participated and have an awesome set of transmog to show for it!
I understand that Mythic+ kinda replaced the Challenge modes, but they are very different both as reward system and duration.
Challenge modes you had to succeed them once per dungeon whereas with Mythic+ you have to do them over and over again. CMs had mostly cosmetic and mount rewards and Mythic+ have mostly gear rewards.
So, my question is, why did we lost CMs?
These are few of my thoughts and I would love to discuss and exchange more thoughts on this topic with the rest of the community.
Thanks for reading!
Most expansions after Cataclysm has had around 8 dungeons. MoP had 6 new and 3 reworked. WoD had 8. Legion had 8 at launch, two added in 7.1, mega in 7.2 and two in 7.3 for a total of 13. BfA had 10 at launch with a mega added in 8.2. Shadowlands had 8 at launch and mega at 9.1
So the amount of dungeons we’re at right now in the patch cycle of this expansion seems resonable.
I’d argue that Temple of the Jade Serpent was a pretty different dungeon in m+ compared to the version that’s available in MoP. I can’t say regarding Shadowmoon Burial Ground as I didn’t play it on mythic but I enjoyed it. See no reason to update Legion dungeons as they are quite on par with “newer” dungeons. Vortex Pinnacle has seen some updates to it as well, making it more “fresh”.
We’ve yet to have a Shadowlands dungeon in Dragonflight m+ rotation so this is false.
But you’d be fine with having the same 8 dungeons for an entire expansion?
I 100% agree that they need to do some solid improvements on how to handle pugs. However, I exclusively play with pugs both in raid and m+ and more often than not it’s the attitude you bring that makes the group. I play tank and as long as I communicate my pathing, making sure that people know that I, as a tank makes the calls on what to pull and respect the mana of the healer it’s ok. Just communicate and it’s fine most of the time.
While I understand this statement, I don’t feel that this representative of the majority of the player base. You don’t need to do 8 timed +20 if you’re not doing mythic raiding. And if you are doing mythic raiding, you’re pushing the high limits of what the game has to offer and I’d argue that you have to make a time investment in order to do that.
Please no. I’d honestly see this as a punishment for enjoying two different end game pillars and if they went this way, I’d probably stop raiding altogether.
I would love to see the return of cosmetic items for playing high-end m+. Let’s say you’re rewarded a weapon skin-set for getting 2-2.5k rating as an example.
Yes. I prefer not to play and not to pay for a slightly redesigned version of a dungeon I was already playing for 2 years in the past. I am paying for new content.
I do not fully agree. Yes not everyone runs a mythic raiding group, but 4k guilds set foot in mythic raiding. Used to be 6k+ guilds in the past. 4k guilds globally is 100.000 to 150.000 players. Not is not a minority if you consider that many other people play just for pet battles, many are just pvpers, some are roleplaying, others are pushing M+.
Personally I do have the time to spend and still feel ok with the commitment it requires. The time investment needs to be at least more linear. What happened this patch with having the crests cap per week so high lead to more toxicity in communities and to more people burning out. People do not have limits, which is a good and a bad thing.
While a relevant number on its own, it’s still a small percentage of the player base.
So the issue is more the high limit of crests forcing some players to do m+ to stay relevant in mythic raiding? Would a lower weekly cap help with this? Instead of compartmentalizing the end game pillars further (as the other alternative).
A lower weekly cap will make the environment less toxic and the players not to get burned out and be interested to play for longer.