Works fine with the Shalamayne trinket, which has a nice payoff, so for Demolish, it depends on the payoff.
Slayer says hello!
Well with the further information here is some more concise feedback regarding demolish itself.
2s channel time, is this hasted? it better be hasted.
Also why 2s? weâre a 1.5s GCD class that reduces the GCD with haste, so this is an awkward interaction from the get go breaking rhythm. This needs to be a 1.5s (ideally) or 3.0s (if youâre going for a more flashy animation so itâs not so compressed with haste at higher gear levels or heroism/lust effects) scaling with haste channel to avoid unnecessary gcd loss and conflicting with opportunity cost of cooldowns themselves in building test of might etc.
Not a bit fan of the not being able to move either, realistically youâve got the meat of the hero talents done right but animation locking a tank or a dps is going to lead to more planking moments for when the mechanic lines up just right. FyrâAlath somewhat has this issue for specs that donât have much haste to reduce itâs channel, so going back to the first point, this channel time needs to be hasted.
Especially when your referenced abilities Fists of Fury (had itâs root removed and allowed to move freely since itâs initial incarnation in Mists). Eyebeam, (movement abilities cancel it).
From the PvP side and ants in the pants tank side in PvE, being rooted on your channel doesnât help at all if players or a wayward boss following an adhd tank who hasnât taken their meds can just run out of your attackâs range to basically make your cast useless in missing a hit or two. So this needs to follow itâs target at bare minimum if youâre intent on animation locking the player during this ability.
Wrong with WW monk during fist if fury the monk can move reposition
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blizzard devs dont even play their own game
Thanks for clarifying the flavor and themes yâall are going for. I think if there are additional cosmetic changes (EG: Cool Battlescars) they could go along way in reinforcing this fantasy.
On paper this sounds cool. In practice it may leave a lot to be desired. If the channel doesnât scale with haste it may become an awkward button in our rotation. A big fear is that it may heavily deincentiving haste. This make it feel like it has anti-synergy with Colossal Might and Unstoppable Force in the hero tree.
Two second Root while channeling, is also a hard sell, albeit not an impossible one. If minor movement, and haste scaling is allowed it would go a long way at making âChannel in Meleeâ less scary.
A big concern here is that this almost feels like the Condemn issue we had in Shadowlands for Arms. An absurd amount of damage when available, but to compensate damage outside of when the ability was usable was painfully low.
That being said, a large ability like this does open a unique damage profile that when combined with other specs (EG Breath of Eons from Aug Evokers) could result in some really cool setups in PvE and PvP.
All and all I think we just have to get some playtime on Demolish to truly get a feel for it.
Glad to see devs are listening to our issues with utility especially in M+. Thank you! Fingers crossed we get a tool that allows us to manipulate enemyâs positioning in some way!
3 Likes
TLDR; Ability is fine, aside for the horrendeous root effect. But they need to communicate better about what they want us to do, mechanically speaking.
Most of the reactions to the talents have been negative prior to the attemps to clarify and soothe said reactions⌠Only to confirm the very reasons people have been on the fence regarding demolish.
Worse, the example used as a comparison to further explain the idea behind Demolish have quickly been shown to actually not being proper examples.
It feels like the thought process beind this tree was akin to :
- We will make the Arms hit harder, with a nice display/animation.
- To make sure the animation isnât clipped, we will lock it behind a short channeling.
- Itâs starting to look like fist of fury or Eye Beam, but with a shorter channeling. They wonât be able to move either, but itâs shorter so itâs fine.
- It will provide some imunity as a payoff, so either arms or prot can use it to counter some mechanics.
1 - You got it right with the intent : Arms should hit like the mother of all trucks. And a shield Slam should too.
2 - Yeah. I mean, why not. Iâm not against Fist of Fury or Bladestorm, it slows down the spec, which is fine IF it is impactful AND doesnât turn the class into a melee caster. During Legion, Prot had a channelled ability, the one given through the prot artifact. Not the most popular or missed ability.
3 - Ok no. There. Right there. Either you donât play your game (and thatâs fine, as long as you really take in feedback). Or you locked yourself into a corner and youâre trying to justify your design at all cost. Remember that legion prot artifact ability ? The payback was bad, but the fact that you were grounded and couldnât do anything while casting was the major reason people didnât use it.
4 - At the point the payoff doesnât matter. And this one is a bad one. I mean, Immunity to kockback and abilities that would move your character ? On a class with two charges, a leap, intervene and shield charge ? I donât want to sound disrespectful but⌠whatâs next, giving DH a slow fall spell ?
You got the idea right : make the warrior a big monster hitting truck whose abilities are rewards by themselves. Make the Arms and Prot have to think about the best moment to use their spell.
But the nail in the coffin (and it already has a few in) is the grounding effect. No warrior want to be grounded. Especially since thereâs at least a 50% chance the Dungeon / Raid / Boss Encounter design will not take this into account, and man, imagine HC Amirdrassil ? Nymue, Smolderon, Fyrak, Igira, Larodar, Tindral, Gnarlroot⌠Fyralath has shown most of the players donât like being rooted.
Why do you insist on something if the feedback is âyou tried it before multiple time, and we NEVER liked it, most of the time we hated itâ.
Thinking of it, itâs also an issue of communicating the intent : not about the fantasy, but what you aim for us to do mechanically speaking. Do you intend for us to have a lot more to do, or just press that Demolish button when itâs there. Do we have to keep track of that buff, or does it just flows with the rest ? Etc.
3 Likes
Well⌠colossus is DOA for arms. May still be ok for pve prot tanking.
so much whining in here
i just hope the animation is good
7 Likes
Splitting my response post, cuz the more i think about Demolish, the more i have to say.
TLRD: numerically and gameplay-wise the spell looks like it wonât add too much to the rotation, but the root effect is really bad.
Also, and to re-emphasize the cognitive dissonance of Demolish,
- Just like those abilities, a Colossus player will have to think tactically about when and where is optimal to use it. This is an intentional part of the flavor of the ability.
And
- Every hit of Demolish will hit hard, so youâll want to use it as soon as you can.
Which is it ? As soon as possible, or tactically ? And no, it canât be both. If it needs a build up, itâs not âas soon as possibleâ. If it is âas soon as possibleâ it canât be âhigh risk high rewardâ. You can make it so a big payoff is hard to reach, i.e. Arcane mage build-up), or you can make it so you rush it as soon as possible, i.e. Pyroblast procs.
But you donât make it so Fire Mage has a major arcane-like build up while piling up on Pyroblast procs.
If you give Warrior an ability that hits HARD, but you lock it behind yet another build up, youâre not increasing the complexity of the class, youâre either creating frustration, or making that part of the spec just annoying to understand, juggle AND play. If upon that, you add a drawback that makes you have to think WHEN to use that supposedly ârewarding to useâ ability, at this point youâre just poking players nagging them âaha itâs hard youâre failingâ.
Trying to see it from a number perspective (i might be off, tho).
You need 5 Mortal Strikes to reach 10 stacks. Doing so weaving Colossus Smash, MS, Overpower and Rend, gives you about 36 seconds of cd on CS. But only about 28 on Demolish. Meaning once you reach 5 stacks, you have one more set of MS > OP > OP then refresh Rend before gaining back CS.
At that point you have about 6 seconds left on Demolish cd. Accounting for movement, mistakes and us being human, you COULD (emphasis on it not being assured) line up Avatar > CS > Demolish.
Regarding the build up itâs not AS bad as i initially thought : from a design perspective, it only adds one more spell to weave in after CS, without more build up.
But regarding the grounding effect, itâs even worse than i thought. Yes, it lines up pretty good with CS, but if you have to move for any reason youâre loosing BIG on Demolish. Which makes me thing both the chanel and imunity are there to make sure youâre not interrupted while using it or wasting it. But by making it so tied to the CS window, players are obviously going to use it regardless of the risks taken (damage pools, target movements,etc), which will cause a lot of grief.
Remove the Root effect and the spell is good.
3 Likes
Hey, EU player here Iâm really concerned about Demolish, every rooted channel Iâve played so far did not feel good on Warrior. Especially on Arms I want single hits with big impact, combos and flurries are something I rather see on the Fury side of things. âloreâ-Wise I donât really see a point in a windup for the big hit as we already do that with colossus smash / warbreaker and Tactitian etc. We are warriors that have slain godlike beings, we made immortal beings fear Mortal Strike! I do think Demolish would be just fine if it would be a single hit or atleast non rooted. The Colossus is not moved by his adversaries but⌠would him being unable to move not just make him a colossal brick?
A rooted tank? Sounds like a recipe for success! Yes dps is important, but you cant do dps if you are dead. Even dps stack versatility in higher keys to survive. The direction the devs are going definitely shows their lack of understanding what players want.
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So Colossus is dead on arrival.
2 Likes
The amount of dooming because of a root channel is insane. Now if you donât like the idea of it in your rotation, sure ok express that.
But the root by itself isnât a problem, even less so if it can be hasted like the leggo axe. Just donât be brain dead and you wonât die to it, promise
4 Likes
Or, now hear me out, you could actually not be a grey parser, learn the fights, and know when to use a big cd⌠I know, I know, very big brain.
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Also, throwing thoughts out there, since the whole Demolish gimmick is self encompassing, it kinda feels like splitting the spell into several talents for the sake of having different talents.
- Demolish
- MS gives 1 Colossal Might, up to 5.
- Buff to Major Spell also increases secondary ability.
- Main Ability gives more buff (x2).
- Main Ability gives back Major Spell if Major Spell Buff at Max.
Feels like youâd have a better time grouping things together and finding more interesting replacement. Since we eventually get ALL talents, it feels like having to spend points on things like âmore stacksâ is just a âiâm out of ideaâ from the class designers.
Youâd have a more interesting time with stuff like :
- Demolish
- MS gives 2 Colossal Might, up to 10 . Colossal Might buffs Overpower.
- MS reduces the cd of Demolish if Colossal Might is at max.
- Multiple Choice (ST or Multi) :
â Using Slam while above 5 stacks of Colossal Might grants 5 seconds of Colossus Smash
OR
â Using or Revenge when above 5 stacks of Colossal Might has a chance to make your bleeds more potent for 5 seconds. - While channeling Demolish you gain Towering Presence, making you imune to stuns and effects that move you, but slowing your movement speed by 30%.
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I get what youâre saying, but you canât announce how hero talents are there to further the class fantasy, then design it with somehting that has failed before, and isnât popular.
Also, saying âget goodâ isnât a solution, you need to take into account the âgrey parsersâ, because some people out there will never bother to read all their spells and keep wondering why theyâre always rooted when using said spells.
Wow isnât a âget goodâ game, but thatâs a whole other debate 
I wonât die from the root, sure. Because iâll play around it. But does having the root make the spell more fun ? Does having to lose your window of dps because you had to NOT press that super uber spell with its super uber animation that is so rewarding to use, because you might die from it,⌠is that fun, engaging, rewarding ? Thatâs more of a hassle.
If you want a high risk - high reward where youâll greed, there are more insteresting ways to do so, by adding a rewarding element to it instead of a punishing one. Like âthe longer you maintain your buff, the more dmg youâll do when eventually using your spellâ. Or âstacks up a buff when you donât move, and spend those stacks when finally using your spellâ. Something that pushes you into taking risks, instead of something that punishes you for doing it.
The better you are at doing your mechanic, the better your parse. Instead of âif you miss manage your mechanic, youâre greyâ, which leaves much less room to improvement.
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That is not a reason whatsoever to dumb down design. Reading your abilities is not restrictive and itâs not on the rest of us to endure dumb things because some people canât read basic information.
Of all the arguments against the root, this is one of the worst
Do keep expressing your opinions and dislike of it if you wish, but leave this kind of reasoning behind
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Eye beam works just fine and has since its inception.
3 Likes
If you are committed to this root adding flavor (which I donât think it does at all), tailor the defensive node in the hero spec to grant the warrior a massive damage reduction during the duration of the channel
Like a DH having 100% dodge during blade dance in BFA being pretty much immune to melee attacks during the attack animation, grant the warrior a hefty diminishing return to compensate for the root.
You say
Both of these things cannot be true. It cannot be a button that I want to use as soon as I can and a button that I need to think tactically about when and where to use it. Pick one please.
Preferrbly nip this whole root nonsense in the bud now and just make it a regular ability. Why do we need to do this dance again?
You give us something players are telling you wonât feel good to use in any meaningful content. Just listen to us. What is gained by being unable to move during the ability aside from flavor?
Is it not flavor to make it so a frost mage can only cast frost spells in a zone filled with snow? Sure, but does it make the spec enjoyable? Probably not.
All of our feedback during beta regarding the ability is going to be asking you to remove the root. Can we just avoid this situation entirely? Itâs going to do nothing but clog up the feedback channels with something that shouldnât exist in the first place.
Keep it simple. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel here. Itâs covenent feedback all over again; We told you banner was bad all of SL alpha and beta.
It was known it was a horrendous ability and still went live, at which point it wasnât used by anyone until major reworks to it. Can we avoid this situation again, please?
What is gained here by rooting a melee dps during a button that will be used every 30-40 seconds? Because this isnât an ability with a 3 minute cooldown. We will be using it very frequently, as soon as it is available according to your own words. In what world is being rooted every 30-40 seconds enjoyble?
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