Feedback and Solutions for Improving Ret Paladin PvP by Lvladen, Vanguards, Pikapal, Sean, Beatman, Frumples

Classes Paladin
83

You lose raw pressure from padding damage. The problem is you can’t toggle it off in combat/have no decent alternatives if you skip it. And you can’t toggle off concecration proccing from BoJ since it is no longer a talent. You want to be able to cleave in PvP, but it should be controllable, not a bunch of stupid passives that could have been easily baked in divine storm as an extra damage to its numbers.

It is not like that unforch. You don’t pvp as much I see. Same thing is DS proccing of FV after judgment every 25 sec. You need it for a good ST burst in pvp, but it is also unnecessary cleave that can mess things up.

In PvP you can use havoc to CC 2 players with coil. And yes, spec is always hard to balance in PvP because of Havoc. It is either busted, or garbage.

84

Because DS is added damage on ST as well, since it just goes of at the same time.

Blessed Champion doesn’t have such a component, it is purely cleave.

Again, it removes nothing from Ret ST damage balance, it’s not part of the formula at all when it comes to it because it adds literally nothing to ST.

It’s part of the AoE equation though but it’s not like PVPer go around spamming AoE to kill their target.

Hard to balance in a meta sense, not hard as far as ST damage goes because they can just lower the damage havoc allows on the second target.

Really? :face_with_monocle:

What’s the build? What is it you’re not taking instead of Blessed champion?
To be honest, even with the low impact talent there is in this section, it seem to be a rather wild claim that nothing else would contribute in a worthwhile fashion.

I’m curious, is it close to the icy vein build that’s up right now?

Because making the same build that is up right now, you can remove blessed champion with no cost as far as pathing goes and then the following talents are available:

  • Inquisitors ire
  • Tempest
  • Zealot fervor (2nd point)
  • Hearth of the crusader
  • Burning crusade
  • Executioner Will (most likely bad)
  • Divine auxiliary (most likely bad)

We also have, from my perspective and to my understanding of PVP, somewhat/completely useless talent in:

  • Divine Wrath
  • Empyrean Power
  • JJE
  • Rush of light

So what’s the problem with say Ire or tempest?
You say Empyrean Legacy adds pressure but Ire, which would get it’s max value over the course of EL ICD, doesn’t make the cut… But blessed champion does…
(I know Ire has a rather exaggerated modifier on it which basically brings it back to 30% damage increase instead of 50%)

Why? so you can pad? What’s that worth, what’s the upside?

85

So no range, and no way to get to the target.

So no solution is placed.

cool.

86

It adds pressure on enemy team, esp when they are stacked.

You don’t know it for sure.

Has a pvp nerfing modifier attached when u zone in arena/bg.

Requires u to press DS when you mash FV/ spend hp on WoG in dire times.

Both require you to be in melee range. Guess what happens when ur BoF is insta purged in pvp.

Both garbage. ES is 70% nerfed in pvp. FR’s boost to spenders is nerfed in pvp, also FV damage is a joke in general.

Yep. That is why PvP-wise design is bad. We also have no crit in pvp gear when we stack mastery, so all crit-enchancing talents become garbage too. In SL this was compensated by pvp talent that gave us 12% crit in total when ret or his party members were CCed. Now it is gone. And we lost 4% haste from passive which makes our rotation outside of wings clunky too.

87

See you’re speaking on both side of your mouth now.

For once there’s a point put in Zealot, so if 1 is good enough, the second has the same value.

Second, they ALL kind of require to be in melee, so if hearth/zealot arent good enough because of what you mention than so does blessed champion for the same exact reason only WORSE because at least the other 2 get value if there’s just 1 target whilst Blessed need for it to have at least 2.

Judgement does go further but it still needs to be in a clump which is not a given.

Dude…
But you’re already taking Empyrean Legacy, they apply on it, what do you mean you have to use DS?
No you don’t…
You literally have nothing else to press to benefit from them every 20sec.

Taking a step back here…
Honestly, that’s a bit odd to take aim at Blessed champion but not mention all the talents that are flat out useless?

Like, it’s not really blessed champion that is the problem when the reason for it being a problem are that the alternatives are useless/bad.
Sounds like the useless talents are the problem.
:face_with_monocle:

I think it’s worth quoting again

What did it do to you?
Why take a shot at BC?

Meanwhile…
Divine Wrath is useless with Radiant Glory
Both ES/FR node are completely devoid of any creativity and/or useless.
Rush of light is “bad/boring” in all content.
Ire shouldn’t be at 60% of it’s max power and is not even taken for ANY content really…
Vanguard Momentum/ Sanctify are barely relevant…

But it’s Blessed champion that gets the wallop…
I don’t get it…
The second part of the statement should target those, not BC…

Like, when we had the discrepancy problem between to ST/AoE builds in PVE back in DF, where the ST damage of the AoE build was like 20-25% behind what the ST build was doing and vice versa for AoE for he ST build.

I proposed some paths that could bridge the gap.
Amongst those, I talked about making Blessed Champion add damage to the primary target depending on the numbers of target it hit.

So, for example, if you hit no additional target then it would add X% of the cleave damage to your main target instead progressivly going down as you get to 4-5 targets, this way it wouldn’t be a purely cleave/aoe talent.

That would create a ST value to this talent, but as it is now, it has none and is therefor outside of their equation for ST budget.

Regardless of what you think of it.

When they go and look at their little internal charts, they are gonna see Ret, at X position in ST damage scenarios and they are gonna know that no one that cares about their damage in that scenario is gonna take that talent or flat out exclude the ones that did from their chart and go:
“Humm it seems Ret is lagging behind/way up ahead, which talents/abilities are we gonna touch on to bring them back up/rein them in”

And then they’ll change something.

Then the “PVP team” is gonna look that over and go “that’s fine for PVP as well” or “Ohh no, they are gonna be too strong/weak, let us adjust that in PVP”

That’s how it loosely goes, it’s not like there’s a 1000 ways to go about these things.

88

If so much requires to be in melee range, then maybe we need to address our weakness of the gap closing… Being in melee range we should be at our strongest anyways.

1 Like
89

I’m sorry you lost me at DH but I’ll agree with WW they’re absolutely busted atm and a terrible example due to that fact lol. They just fotm and will be nerfed, and I didn’t say we have everything now I’m saying if we got the list of buffs above and lost nothing it would be too much. Maybe you’d understand PvP better if you weren’t paying for carries in 2v2 :sunglasses:

90

Divine spurs needs to just be a baseline -15secs on our divine steed so it’s 30secs if we talent it, I do find it weird we take a nearly 50% duration reduction if we use the talent for lower cd. Making it a useless talent.

91

I did some limited testing on my ret paladin in pvp and it appears that the lack of Hammer of Light damage is tied to Seething Flames.

It reduces damage but causes the additional hits for Wake of Ashes as expected but also seems to reduce Hammer of Light damage. Hammer of Light replaces Wake of Ashes and in 11.1 they “fixed” Hammer of Light modifiers but I believe they applied the SF nerf to HoL at this time.

If I do not talent Seething flames my Hammer of Light hits harder in arenas. This is a problem of course as it means you need to run a different build until this gets fixed. Just wanted to share what I found in my limited testing.

The PVP dummy does not get all of the instanced PVP changes so it is not a good way to test unfortunately. This has been the case since at least S2 in DF and is not limited to paladins. I would like that fixed as well so it is easier to test new changes that are currently being implemented inconsistently.

2 Likes
92

I don’t have an issue with mobility right now because we are a ranged class not a melee in PvP. If they start to design Ret back into a melee/ranged hybrid the mobility problem can become the point of discussion again. Until then its kind of a moot point.

I personally prefer the melee/ranged hybrid spec that we had in Cata/MoP/ WoD more than the versions we had in Legion-BFA and Shadowlands and onward.

Maybe Templar Slash could be a 10yd dash or something idk. But regardless right now in PvP the primary issue is a lack of damage.

5 Likes
93

Sometimes you spend points somewhere just to spend them.

Same story here. You take it to add a small chunk of ST damage. If there was an option to simply increase FV damage by the amount of what that free DS does, guess what would we choose…

That is also true. But you lose nothing if BC is out of equation and is simply added as a damage buff to DS. You spam DS in M+ as a priority anyway.

You don’t need to become so defensive of 1 talent, mate.

94

They have adressed it by giving us range on most skills. By keeping your damage higher in 5 yd range, they want you to atleast try to maintain your uptime on target as a melee spec. You just don’t loose that much when being kited like other pure melee specs.

2 Likes
95

I know, it just felt off a bit no worries buddy!

1 Like
96

I would like to elaborate a little more on this point because it might be difficult to understand for someone that doesn’t 3v3 as much. Blessed champion in PvP makes Ret look like it does more damage than it actually is by cleaving onto pets. When it does in fact cleave onto players it is also ineffectual damage. I’m not saying all AoE is bad in PvP but what happens is it makes people look at damage meters and think Ret is doing okay when its actually adding nothing of value to netting kills in arena.

I don’t think it should be removed or anything. I just think it masks people’s understanding of effective damage vs. useless pad.

4 Likes
97

That part I get, it has its parallel in PVE.

I’m just befuddled as to why you guys picked it over Ire or Tempest which would both increase kill pressure combined (even if it’s small) with EL where as BC doesn’t add anything to a main target as far as damage goes and barely does anything worth mentioning for you otherwise.

I get you mention it as an example of a purely AoE/cleave talent.

I’m probably nit-picking in hindsight but the useless talents I listed are more of an issue to me than this talent, is all. :slightly_smiling_face:

98

Just another quick note of potential useful feedback.

Steed of Liberty could use another pass. This talent no longer serves a purpose sharing a choice node with Blessing of Freedom. Even more so once you factor in Holy Paladins losing double Blessing of Freedom.

Steed of Liberty should be completely merged with Divine Spurs in the talent tree while also allowing us to keep Blessing of Freedom as its own separate ability press.

Divine Spurs should also automatically make Divine Steed (Steed of Liberty) a flat 30 sec cooldown with the reduced duration.

Lastly, just reduce the auto Blessing of Freedom proc from Steed of Liberty down to either 1.5 secs or 2 seconds from the current 3 second duration.

This would go miles for Ret and Paladin maneuverability in PvP!

99

Short summary of buff to rets / mixing into pvp talents could be

  • Mortal Strike on templars verdict
  • Buff 1 minute wings so its viable again
  • Undispellable freedom
  • necro hammer back from shadowlands
1 Like
100

Templar strikes being a dash would be so sick. Im tired of crusading strikes. The entire build of crusade radiant glory is not fun for me.

One day will come when avenging wrath might and templar strikes become viable

1 Like
101

The spec still prefers to be in melee though which is what hes aiming at. The guy wants ret to be melee again and Im not too agasint it. 12yd FV was cool.

People has such a crutch with “LE 20YD RANGE ZOOOOMG RET IS MAGE NOW” when all im doing at 20yd is trying to actually get uptime and in the meantime throw 250k judge, 280k boj and 350k fv damn man so much damage. Holy power generation is cut by a lot if we never get melee uptime.

Can we talk about divine protection being 10% please I am amazed tww launched with ret having the worst wall in the entire game and no, no THORNS (eye for an eye that they just gave to druids on their wall too lel) never stopped people from hitting a target. Just make it 20% 12 seconds.

1 Like
102

It does baffle me that it’s 10% for 8 seconds on a 63 second cooldown, sure we’ve BoP/BoS and shield but after that you’re just kinda dead, and there is almost always a priest to purge em

2 Likes