TOC is a terrible experience and it shouldn’t of out geared Ulduar
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Nax gear was good but it was not the best in all slots. Horizontal progression has been part of classic since the beginning.
The best dps caster trinket was from bwl
The best healing weapon from aq40.
Certain t1 mage items were better than t2
DST from gruul remains bis for quite awhile
Molten Core is basically useful up until nax released.
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Referring to my Naxx point though, 90-95% of gear was better, correct?
Dks oftentimes still use things like Death’s Choice (H) because the armor pen from DBW was up for debate. Can’t remember if it was the “correct choice” but still. Things like the legendary healer mace from Ulduar were preferred over ToC weapons for heals. The Darkmoon cards stuck around (greatness if I remember correctly). There are semblances of your “horizontal progression” in WotLK as well, and while they may not be as prevalent they’re still there. It’s hardly worth giving Blizzard the reigns to “balance things” because that’s exactly what this item squish is; they’re looking to make things more “x,y, or z” in their eyes which is just a roundabout way of saying, “We’re balancing it.”
You’re using one example to try and counteract more than a dozen examples of the contrary.
Nax loot invalidated a lot of other loot because it was the last raid before tbc and even then there was still overlap between nax and some items in aq and even bwl.
Every other tier had overlap. What’s the problem with including ulduar and toc in that. Smaller numbers not zug enough for you?
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So I’m correct? Thanks.
Naxx has overlap with Ulduar? Naxx 25 has 213/226 from KT. Should we then nerf Ulduar item levels so that they have more “overlap” with Ulduar? Ironsoul from the first boss in Ulduar 10 invalidates all other naxx 25 2-handers. By this logic of “horizontality” we should be squishing Ulduar then too.
Because clearly you nor Blizzard do not know how to balance an MMO. Retail is a disgusting abomination and we don’t want that here for the sake of people “trying to make raids harder” for the top-tier raiders. We also don’t want that directly affecting all other aspects of the game like PvP (because that gear will be squished too) and hampering game balance because, yes, being 12-19 item levels behind in a PvP set will mean resilience capping will be more difficult, and things like disc priests don’t need that to be any harder than it already will be.
TLDR: You people do not know what you are doing, and by “You people” I mean the supporters of this nonsense squish and Blizzard. You’re going to be replacing Ulduar gear anyway. Stop prolonging the inevitable because you want to be lazy/run Ulduar forever. You’re forcing others to play the way you want them to play. Other people (most, in fact) signed up to play WotLK in its most genuine form. “Balancing” things because you want to be pathologically selfish and have your “horizontal progression” in an expansion where it did not exist is horrendously self-centered in addition to short-sighted.
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It’s a dumb idea because all it does is make an entire raid worthless to do. All content will get smashed regardless of any changes they do.
Look at when BT/Hyjal was released so much hype and excitement….lol majority of guilds killed it week 1. Compared vs pre-nerf SSC/TK people were stuck for months some never killed pre-nerf vashj/KT.
If you compare the power creep from T5 to T6 it was nuts. However when we went to sunwell it was significantly more difficult raids and still to this day A LOT of people haven’t killed muru or KJ.
I don’t think this change is effective one at all. The reality is the classic community doesn’t want harder content a small % probably does, but not the majority. I would rather make content harder then nerf the power creep if I had to pick personally. I enjoy raiding and a challenge but most don’t. Either way I enjoy the game so stop $&@?ing with it.
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Basically. the only mmo I played not on this model in eve. same gear for theirs years really. I can literally pull items out of storage older than my son lol. still as good as it was 13 years ago.
and its for a reason. Item loss on death.
Imagine an eve like wow. Yes! I have full illlidan glaives!
get jumped on a 3 tower daily…dead.
and they are all gone…well to me. the people who killed would be happy if dropped as loot on my corpse.
Everyone that walked through The Dark Portal is already playing retail.
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And I don’t agree I think TOC was a fun raid it just wasn’t fun 4 times a week and again we and again we had to see a lot longer than we had Ulduar And you’re not taking either one of those factors into account.
I still say let them keep Ulduar For 5 months and then release TOC and see what people think It’s been a long time but to my remembrance we had TOC for 4 months before ICC was released.
Lol.
You are cherry picking my post then pretending that it validates your argument.
Nax 40 invalidated a lot of loot because it was the final raid before tbc. Nobody wants ICC loot and nax25 loot to overlap. bwl didn’t invalidate mc aq doesn’t invalidate bwl or some mc items and nax40 itself still wasn’t enough to get full bis.
Nobody is arguing for all gear to be the same item level or to not be better than the previous tier. We are arguing for there to be more overlap like every tier in classic and many tiers in tbc and for less seasonal based gameplay and more content longevity.
You also ignore that nax was a raid rerelease and toc was half the raid ulduar was. There is some nuance in this situation and you can’t just cherry pick and stick your fingers in your ears and not listen to all relevant details
It’s not “cherry picking” at all. Naxx does in fact invalidate a majority of the gear from other raids. You said so yourself, then attempted to rationalize how that was okay while ToC/ICC somehow is not.
So you’re then saying we shouldn’t squish ICC gear but should squish ToC?
And nobody with any degree of foresight wants #balance changes.
Why not? Is your argument for “horizontality” then selective because you prefer Ulduar? So it’s not the principle of your argument then, it’s just a pathological means to get to the raid you want and make it last longer? That’s what it’s looking like. The principle of your argument would dictate that naxx 25 should be better than Ulduar 10, but you’re not agreeing with the principle of your argument since you disagree with that sentiment but not your own.
This is why we do not want a squish. Not only was it not present in the original, the people who are for it are blatantly doing it for themselves and not the “health of the game”. You appear to be doing it for yourself and Blizzard appears to be doing it for their “we know better” ego. Neither of these rationales should be cause for changing any game let alone WotLK.
EoE, OS. These places drop comparable loot to Naxx. Should they then be squished down because they’re only “one boss”?
Your methods of measuring which raids are “worthy for better gear” and which ones aren’t is inconsistent. That’s more than likely caused by you being dishonest with your actual intentions which is:
“I don’t like ToC so nobody should have to do it.”
No thanks. I’ll take an unchanged Wrath please.
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Hi,
You are objectively wrong. Please uninstall the game and delete your account.
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I like the idea of harder raids, this seems to be one way to do it.
I also would love to see 10 man difficulty raised and the gear to be equal to 25.
Keep the changes coming.
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Ulduar will shine until the end of the expansion because of the legendary item in there, just like we’re still running BT for warglaives.
You do realize if they do this it’s going to be awful right They will literally destroy an entire ratio and when tier 9 does come out if they do that nobody will do it.
Effectively we will have a dead tear because if you ever look at the difference between the item levels its 13 Item level difference between Ulduar and toc On top of that it’s going make a ton of classes feel worse no.
So it’s “seasonal game design” vs “not progressing out of content until you’re full BiS”
Sure, new content shouldn’t entirely delete old content, but keeping people in the same raids for the majority of the expansion because the rewards aren’t meaningfully distinguished is super underwhelming
Agreed. So should the people who want RDF in P1.
It is cherry picking lol. Of course nax40 should invalidate molten core they are several tiers apart. I would say going from one tier to the next shouldnt be a complete obliteration of the tier that came before. Some small overlap is good imo.
You are trying to use some sort of high ground morality thing as if I’m being selfish and just want to raid ulduar longer. At least argue the actual point at hand instead of falsely attacking someone’s character for having a different opinion than you lmao. You have lost all credibility with those attacks, but regardless I will bite one last time.
It has nothing to do with a preference for ulduar, it has everything to do with wanting a better game. I want to raid both toc and ulduar even at the same time, I actually like toc and it’s theme as a tournament is cool. I just want more viable content at once, toc will still be good with the squish.
You just continue to ignore the nuance. Ulduar has more than double the amount of bosses as ToC, allowing ulduar to still have some viability during ToCs run means more content for everyone. It means that after toc is cleared for the week you can still do ulduar with your team and get meaningful gear. Since when is more relevant content a bad thing? How is more gear longevity bad?
I have yet to see a compelling argument, but thanks for trying.
When the game design is centered more heavily on re-running the same content past its current cycle, it’s lazy and less rewarding
It isn’t “lol”. It’s what you said.
And yet the majority of Naxx gear does this. So you disprove yourself again.
That’s what your rationality implies because it is very inconsistent. The only explanation thereafter is that you’re doing it for yourself which very much appears to be the case.
It’s not a “different opinion”. You being pathologically self-interested and exhibiting those qualities via the inconsistencies in your own stances is not an opinion, they are observable phenomena that everyone who reads this forum can see.
What hampers credibility is when you contradict yourself and show that only your self-interests are the things that matter - which you have done.
And you think “horizontality” is a “better game”. Then why don’t you agree with naxx not being invalidated by Ulduar? Why do you agree with the item level squishes of one tier but not the other? Once again your rationality is inconsistent. What we can glean from this, however, is that you think it’s “better” to have this niche inconsistency. Why? Because they’re your sentiments. So it’s good to change because of you. Yes, again, that’s the ego speaking, and it’s your ego. So egocentricity is the real rationality here, and like I said before that’s not okay.
There’s nothing “nuanced” about it.
Again, if your argument is now “Ulduar has more bosses therefore it should be better loot” then why are you okay with OS and EoE dropping gear equal to Naxx? Those raids only have one boss in them. Once again your rationality is inconsistent.
Everything in a game is not revolving around only gear. Achievements come out in Wrath. Legendary mace is in Ulduar. Mounts come with those achievements. There’s plenty of “meaningful” in Ulduar after ToC. Your arguments are very selective in what they choose to include/exclude. Reeks of ignorance or pathology.
Since to get these things would require handing over the reigns to Blizzard to balance the game. Since “balancing” these things would affect the rest of the scope of the game (looking at you, PvP and resilience gear also dropping in item levels because of these changes). Or, in short, since there are vast unintended consequences that you conveniently choose to leave out.
You don’t “see” an argument because you don’t want to. It’s there but you seem dedicated to choosing to ignore it.