Source?
I’ve never seen him say that Garrosh is beloved by the fanbase and developers.
This. You have Blizz holding Sylvanas to a really high standard for no real reason, while in lore, Old Gods are infinitely more significant. It’s a bit unrelated but it really bugs me.
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Warlords of Draenor makes a pretty deliberate story jump, can you explain what brought about the idea of this alternate Draenor as opposed to another new world present time? Why this particular threat?
I think it starts with Garrosh. When we first made Garrosh back in Burning Crusade, I remember Metzen and I sitting down – and I did Nagrand, Garrosh was my guy – and we were sitting down and thinking like, we wanted – at that point, even then we knew, in WoW's development we knew – we lamented the fact that we couldn’t bring the Warchiefs back in Burning Crusade, and we did it by proxy, by progeny. We went look, we can’t bring Grom back, but what if he had a son. And that son was Garrosh. So with that, we’re like okay, we’re going to do this, we’re not going to just do this lightly, he’s not going to just be some throwaway, he’s Hellscream’s kid. We’re going to make him something legendary. He’s going to have a fate, and there is destiny here, and we just need to figure out what that destiny is.
And originally, it was a much more heroic, redemptive arc for him, that would have potentially ended up with a strong Hellscream leader. But Garrosh became what was needed for WoW, from a story character development perspective.
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I’m not following. Which part insinuates or suggest that he was beloved by the developers and the fanbase?
The “Garrosh was my guy” part and the “he’s not going to just be some throwaway, he’s Hellscream’s kid. We’re going to make him something legendary” part.
The Stonetalon part is actually in that same interview, too:
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Cataclysm seemed like he was going in a different direction for a while there ...
He was.
He was? Tell us about that – why he had that shift.
Miscommunication.
So Stonetalon …
Me.
You did Stonetalon?
I did Stonetalon.
I didn’t stick to that path with Garrosh. I didn’t – not everyone was on board. Not everyone got the memo as it were, as we were designing – and that was my fault. Because when you’re doing, when you’re trying – because I was actually trying to bring Garrosh around, and Stonetalon was going to be the first of that. Cataclysm was pretty crazy time for us.
You had so much to do.
We did quite a lot of work. So I feel like there was a little bit of miscommunication on my part that kind of led to Garrosh going down another, darker path. So there’s an interesting tidbit for you.
It was interesting though, in the aspect of seeing that glimmer of what he could have been.
Well he was good at the other way. He did well at that. He was a good killer and plunderer and murderer.
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IMO “Garrosh was my guy” gives off a slightly different connotation than “Sylvanas is beloved by the developers and fanbase”
Maybe its just me /shrug
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As far as the leaders’ reactions to Sylvanas, one might keep in mind that technically only Baine and Talanji actually know about the whole murkiness of her appointment as Warchief in the first place. None of the other leaders have been involved in the whole thing with Vol’jin’s spirit and the mystery of who whispered Sylvanas’ name to him, and Baine and Talanji might not want to approach them with that until they’re more certain about what actually happened and they’re ready for whatever response might come from this unknown agency if it’s exposed.
So unlike Baine, in the minds of most of the leaders there isn’t that fresh doubt about the actual legitimacy of her being Warchief to reinforce their uncertainty about her behavior. Newcomers aside - who seem to largely be just feeling things out in general without passing judgment yet as they get oriented with what the Horde as a whole is about - the other racial leaders are still wrangling with the hope that Vol’jin knew what he was doing and this is all part of some foresight on his part that will vindicate his choice in the end.
(Well, aside from Gallywix. Sylvanas’ actions are keeping the gold flowing and his pocket book heavy, so he probably doesn’t care what she does as long as that remains the case.)
Additionally, when people ask why Derek’s plight was Baine’s breaking point, they kinda overlook its timing in relation to that other occurrence. His actions aren’t just coinciding with Derek’s situation; they’re also happening quite shortly (in lore-time, not patch release time) after he and the players find out that Vol’jin may have been deceived, calling into question the very legitimacy of and reason for Sylvanas’ appointment as Warchief in the first place. That brings up the possibility that her ascension may be part of an outright plot against the Horde that was instigated by outside forces, replacing the concern that her excesses might destroy the Horde with the fear that she may only be Warchief at all as part of a plan expressly meant to destroy the Horde.
When it comes down to it, a lot of the Horde’s leaders put up with Garrosh for as long as they did partly because Thrall was the one who picked him. Even as Hellscream became less and less reasonable, those who most vehemently disagreed with Garrosh clung to the hope that Thrall was right about him; that he would come around to see things their way and change. And Thrall reinforced that by continuing to tell them that they needed to hang in there and give Garrosh a chance. If they’d instead found out at some point that Thrall had been tricked into appointing Garrosh by some shady unknown third party whose intentions are potentially bad our outright adversarial toward the Horde and their respective peoples, more of them would have probably acted against Hellscream a whole lot sooner.
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well… they are scared shirtless of sylvanus, i mean shes a tyrant nobody wants to be offed, they are so scared they dont dare to mak gora her thinking their bodies will be found in a ditch before they set foot on the ring, of course such thing cant last, specially because some of the horde leaders are long lived or quasi immortal, ergo, not easily replaced with a puppet, besides, what are they gonna do? right there on that little dirt of kul tiras, they have less power than if they were on their cities.
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Just saying, you’re clinging pretty strongly onto the words of a guy who didn’t want Garrosh’s destiny to be a raid boss, either, and we saw how that turned out, and also the same guy who intentionally will misdirect us instead of giving us spoilers:
- Did Teldrassil fall first, and lead to the attack of Undercity; or was the burning of Teldrassil a response to the bold Alliance attack on Lordaeron? You will find out.
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This honestly really annoyed me. They made it out to be that maybe Sylvanas wasn’t going to burn the tree and that maybe the Horde would be framed, you know, something creative.
But no, it was literally exactly what everyone was expecting.
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The Horde has a built in solution to Warchiefs that are getting out of hand, it’s called Mak’gora. Baine watched as his father perished in one of these due to the inference of an outside force. Baine contemplated challenging Garrosh, but knew that it would happen again.
The same goes for Sylvanas, except, unlike Garrosh, she is showing to be infinitely more dangerous due to her powers (which we all know she would use). The other leaders of the Horde know this as well.
They have a means of removing her through (and I use this loosely) “Legal” means, but the powers she commands, and the loyalty of her followers make this method impossible.
I’m not saying what Baine did wasn’t treason, cause it was. But he was left with precious few options to do what he felt was right. Baine is not a fan of senseless loss of life and suffering, and though I still feel like he Hates the current version of the Horde, he feels that if he can end the war quickly (and on Alliance terms) less will suffer on both sides.
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It seems to me that Blizzard is suffering from pacing problems.
They are keeping Horde leaders from acting because they aren’t ready to have the Horde implode yet… But they can’t just not give Horde players War Campaign quests to complete. So they were forced to only move half the story forward. Whatever civil war we’re having, it must be tied to the final content patch, so Blizzard is stuck giving us weaksauce gossip text to hold us over until then.
This expansion is so rushed that they couldn’t figure out how to roll the story out in a way that hits all the beats at the right time and in a way that makes sense before they were pushed into starting it.
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UGH, dont remind me, outright dissapointing and thats how you lose the faith of your fans.
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Hey, at least they said something. That’s more reaction than we’ve ever had about Teldrassil.
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Who says they aren’t doing anything?
They know Sylvanas is a strategist. They aren’t going to tip their hands where she can see, or move before they are ready. When they have laid their plans, and all is in place, they will act.
The Blood Elves have a back-channel to the Tauren leadership through the Paladin orders. Likewise, the Darkspear through the Cenarion Circle.
Troll, Tauren and Orcs share a more fundamental bond in the Eathen Ring.
Forsaken have no Druids, no Paladins and no Shamans - all of whom are apt to take exception to her actions of late.
Thrall is still out there. When he comes back, he won’t be moving alone.
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But that might not have led to a very interesting or provocative story. It might have just become bland and dull after a lengthy period.
Even Gallywix isn’t Sylvanas’ biggest fan right now. Sure, he’s going with the flow, but she had to twist his arms into forcing his engineers make weapons from Azerite. Plus you have to wonder how much of his bit of voicing regrets and then stating he’s joking and only cares for the money is legit apathy on his part, or just him covering an emerging guilty conscience with humor.
Get in here.
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Uhh … this dude is responsible for the destruction of Kazan and then attempted to enslave the survivors after they paid their entire life-savings to get onto his boat. Gallywix isn’t the type to feel guilt for actions he made that harmed others, though he can feel regret for making mistakes that harmed himself in some way. He certainly has a talent for keeping himself alive…
And,no, he’s not really a Sylvie fan. He likes working with her because she tends to just let him get away with whatever he wants; and she likes using him because he’s pretty easy to predict, doesn’t really have a moral code to overcome, and thus is easy to control with the right motivations…
I know how you feel here, but let’s keep in mind the story isn’t over yet. And if you are thinking “we watched this happen, we participated in the War of Thorns, we were given a sweet Bat mount that almost makes burning Teldrassil to the ground worth it,” all I can say is…you are right where Blizzard wants you right now.
As I mentioned in another thread, the War of Thorns makes the entire Horde playerbase culpable in genocide regardless of whether Sylvanas remains as Warchief or not. That is simply an unsustainable narrative black hole post-BfA. The Horde will have to be reconciled to the burning of Teldrassil in some way that allows it to work with the Alliance moving forward and doesn’t become a moral get-out-of-jail-free card for the Alliance for the next decade. We’ll see where Blizzard goes with it. If they really are terrible writers they will simply ignore it and soldier on (with it being rehashed and debated endlessly amongst the playerbase for the next decade) or they will have written a way out of the corner we find ourselves in.
I personally thought the Illidan/Naaru arc in Legion was a brilliant subversion of expectations, so I suspect there is still some creativity at Blizzard HQ.
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