Ill literally call you on discord right now to prove I am not that person.
but cope harder.
It’s possible. I suspect we aren’t both using the same definition of competitive, though wrong wouldn’t be the term I’d use to describe that.
If you try to be better than others (or yourself), you can be said to be competitive.
Of course. Raids reset weekly, heroic instances reset daily. I think after they added the LFD, you could actually run the same heroics multiple times, if queued for random.
I guess you missed my point. I wasn’t required to queue into LFD for multiple roles.
This was just stating that I spent a lot of time playing the game. It was raids that I was required to keep a second spec and set of gear for.
Fair enough. Like I said, perhaps it’s just a bias from my own personal experience that causes me to believe this.
Bit of a misunderstanding here.
I played 4 tanking classes, and focused on tanking content during wrath. My example of running all heroics outside of raid nights was to show that my focus was on PVE, and that I spent a lot of time playing during that time.
Although I wasn’t the raid leader for my main raid group, I lead current content pug raids on my alts as well, outside of raid times.
By linking to them giving their statements about their intentions.
We know that they didn’t want to make it easier to respec during TBC, because, during the time, there was a blue post that stated:
“We would like to continue to support the idea that respecs should be very carefully thought out strategic decisions.”
I don’t know that my argument here is particularly strong nor even valid. It’s clearly anecdotal, so 
, but then so are all the arguments.
For pure DPS classes, no matter how they spec, their role doesn’t change. While of course in hardcore guilds, they would be expected to maintain the best spec (or now specs) and gear for the PVP content they are in, for the average guild, however that expectation doesn’t exist. So, dual spec gives them 1 raid spec, and 1 (whatever they want spec).
For hybrid classes, they have multiple potential roles they can play. And changing around the number of tanks, healers for some fights might happen more often. And might be required more often. If that is actually accurate, then dual spec gives hybrids 2 raid specs much more often than it gives pure DPS classes 2 raid specs.
If they end up implementing Dual Spec, we can attempt to prove this out (either way) by making some surveys, and attempting to solicit feedback. But yeah… it’s a speculative, and anecdotal argument at best.
Yeah, neither do I.
Well, if my anecdotal, speculative reason isn’t good, how about, “There are better ways to solve the problems it aims to solve.”
man you’re stupid lol. Yeah, the max level rogue on the US server is the same guy as the max level mage on the Oceanic server
Also, did anyone else pick out the irony in that
literally said by the person who said he agrees with me that wotlk is the best
but is arguing with me because… reasons?
Arguing? Nah, just pointing out an opinion is just an opinion. Even if I happen to agree with it.
Competitive means there is competition, and that means I am going against someone else in some regard. Me cooking and trying to get better at it is not inherently competitive as there is no competition, and the same can be said for guilds trying to clear content. The bulk are clearing it because they want to, not to compete against others. Our two karas compete against each other, but we don’t compete against other raids or guilds.
Competitive raiding is because players are competing for the fastest clear for classic, there is competition there. Most guilds are not doing that.
Yeah, you could queue heroic halls of reflection, do it, then be locked from queueing again, but could randomly be given it anyways as LFD did not recognize locks on random.
And would you say you were forced to, and if denied, lose your raid spot? Cause I wouldn’t say you were forced if there was nothing to lose for denying it, and if you were forced to, then you were going to have to do it any context, dual spec or multiple characters anyways, or not do it in a new guild.
If you are forced by your guild to do something, whether dual spec is in the game or not, you’re going to have to do it for your spot.
I assumed that by talking about dual spec, you were not a tank for your raids, but tanked for heroics after the raids.
Fair, I didn’t claim to know everything about their ideas for specs, but I argue against the idea behind the blue post. I don’t view talents as meaningful as the specs are really just specializations towards the role you play, either tank, heals, dps, or support. In these roles, you will play an optimal build, or a home brew. For optimal builds, you have your core talents, your filler talents to push to core talents, and dead talents that are extra and can be put really anywhere. The core will stay the same with tweaks towards minor talents (Ie, for me I can go expose armor, or go more into poisons, neither are really important as the core focus of combat swords is high on demand burst cleave, stat increases, and energy regeneration). For home brew, good luck. Sure, in the day over a decade ago the idea may have been “meaningful choices” but that isn’t today. Today’s wow player is not the wow player of old, whether they’re a classic or retail player.
Like I said before as well, if people are in a position to be forced to dual spec if dual spec comes, they were more than likely already in that position to begin with.
The only problem I can reasonably see is QOL, as I would like to pvp on my current rogue over having 2 rogues, because the second rogue will just be a bank alt come LK, but ultimately I still don’t want dual spec, but I am not the whole of the wow playerbase.
Tbh, if dual spec could bring more players back and stiffen, if not fix, the hemorrhage of players, then I’d prefer that over the idea of purity.
No way to know till we know. One could say that it’s the Specialization’s box.
Implying that you weren’t trying to argue when talking about how “cata technically had the peak”
Keep backpedaling bud, we know you didn’t respond to the fact that he and I brought up the fact that the technical peak happened in cata, but was 100% based off of LK and what it did, and the peak is attributed to LK itself, despite happening at the start of cata.
I’m glad you acknowledge the peak sub was in Cata, not Wrath.
I’m glad you’re dying on a scuffed hill and not acknowledging that the peak is only due to the success of Wrath and when cata came into full swing is when we saw the decline of wow sub wise that has never recovered.
but you already lost a huge fight here…
the paid boost to skip the grind and the paid mount… this version is only missing the wow token.
Yup the sub sure did plummet in Cata. After peaking in early Cata.
And in your world dying on a scuffed hill is stating a fact.
And why did it peak in Cata? Obviously not due to cata because if cata was the reason, then the subs wouldnt have plummeted like the twin towers.
Care to answer why the peak was at the start of cata before declining?
I mean, you can give a definition of competition and we can agree to use it to view other things. If you are attempting to cook the same dish better than the last time you cooked it, from my perspective there is competition. But who cares.
You have explained your definition of it sufficiently for me to understand what you mean, I think.
This is an assumption, that isn’t accurate in my particular case. Yes, it was required once dual spec became a thing. It was not required prior to that, in the guild I was in. Which I suppose in today’s terms would have been described as semi-hardcore.
Yeah, I agree with that. A lot has changed since the time TBC was new.
I actually preferred Diablo II to WoW when Vanilla was released, because WoW seemed just way too slow (I had rolled a Tauren Warrior during beta, and 3 second swings in Mulgore meant I was spending more time alt-tabbing out to MSN messenger, than in-game, and ended up just going back to spam running Mephisto in D2 LoD on my soso).
Oh, the point I wanted to make there was back then, in a game like D2, if you put points into your stats or talents, that was permanent. Today, you can respec in D2. Times change. The world changes.
So, what’s the problem definition here? Is it this?
“I want to be able to play 2 types of content, but in order to PVP and PVE on my rogue, I need to respec and I do not want to respec.”
Well, it’s a speculative opinion, but we really don’t know if Dual Spec would bring more players back or push more players away.
The best argument for it seems to be, “I disagree with any of the reasons against it.” Which seems like an argument we could have for any and every change.
I don’t recall when things changed more towards the modern system, but just how long did WoW have dual spec before it was replaced with the talent overhaul, and any spec system, and what were the steps in between?
I remember there were glyphs, and there were some resources (I think inscription made resources) that you could use to reset talent builds. I don’t recall precisely when we changed to only being able to select talents from 1 tree, like the modern Retail system, but if I were to guess, I’d lean towards Cataclysm.
Did Dual Spec last longer than half of an expansion?
Why? Who cares about why? It’s irrelevant. The question isn’t why the subs peaked, but when. And that was early Cata.
WRONG. that was in wotlk. cataclysm is when they started going off a cliff.
It’s difficult to know for certain, and it depends on what you mean, but according to the official data that we have access to (points in blue), the peak of subscriptions happened during Cataclysm.
I mean there’s a word for that, and it’s called growth, or self improvement, and while one can be competitive against themselves, to say that guilds progressing to kill say, Gruul, is competitive, I just feel like it’s wrong. I just view it as normal growth.
That’s perspective as well. I view any player being forced or in this case, required to do something they didn’t originally plan to do as more hardcore than anything. It’s were you start the blur the line between fun and chore imo. I view myself as semi-hardcore, because I’m not changing from rogue, and I’m not changing from combat swords, but I will do what I need to do to perform the best that I can in what I chose.
I feel like that’s the sentence to sum up this entire conversation. No matter what we want, times change. No king rules forever. The best we can do is find fun where we can, and enjoy it as long as we can.
Yeah, but it’s not even a problem with respecc’ing, I just don’t want to change it at all because I know my friends will want to do <literally anything else that’s not pvp> and I’ll need to come along because I want to help my friends, so I’d end up spending not 100g a week, but more like 250-300g a day, and I aint about that. That said, I also still don’t care. If I want to pvp that badly, I’d respec, but I don’t because I don’t want to pvp that badly. It’s also why my second rogue, that I made for pvp, is only level 21. I just don’t care enough or want it enough.
But I can see why others want it, because I want purity over my own ability to do 2 different forms of content, but I can see why others prefer the opposite.
Yes, that’s why I called it “Specialization’s box”, as a reference to Schrodinger’s box. We won’t know till we know.
Yes, Dual spec was in from 3.1 to the prepatch of Legion. It changed with the talents overhaul, but talents have been overhauled a lot. I want to say Cata is what introduced forced tree completion before going over to the modern style we have now, but that style was still tied to the spec itself for the most part so dual spec still existed. Legion is when they allowed free movement between everything. Dual spec was in the game longer than the old talent system.
Glyphs were a 1 time permanent improvement and could be replace but the previous glyph would be unlearned and need to be rebought and relearned. A book was later added that memorized all the glyphs after they were learned, so the more glyphs you had, the more choice you had as you permanently knew them, but could only have 3 major and 3 minor active at once, but you still needed a reagent to change them if not at a glyph station. Over time the usefulness of glyphs slowly declined, and I want to say it was Legion as well that made glyphs purely cosmetic. Legion had as much, if not more, overhaul than Cata.
The influence of retail can be traced back to LK, but the start of modern wow was Legion imo as that’s when the homogenization and balanced power started with a focus on player retention via daily grinds.
LK to WoD lacked that, despite all having an influence and changes that we see in a more finalized form starting in Legion and going on through today.
1 Like
But why explains the effect. We know that the peak was early cata, but the why is just as, if not, more important, especially when talking about what’s “best”. We saw a continual rise all the way until the start of cata, which is when the game got overhauled and players left in droves.
You want it to be irrelevant because you know that the why kills your argument, because the peak only exists in cata because of LK, and thus the peak should be attributed to LK, while you want it to be cata as your entire point exists on the technicality that the peak is in cata while ignoring the entire why.
You want to do mental gymnastics and statistic manipulation and I ain’t having it.
That’s interesting.
My opinion is that the start of Retail was Vanilla.
Experiencing WoW Classic, server transfers were the first QoL feature that I personally felt were intended as an improvement, but detracted from the game. Of course, this is an aside to this thread.
Thanks for the conversation here. You’ve made me rethink my stance on dual spec, and one of my main points against it, which may be purely experience-based bias, which may not actually matter for much.
1 Like
I’m not interested in the why. I’m not having a debate here. I’m not arguing anything. I simply stated a fact. And you’re simply demonstrating the folly of assigning an arbitrary definition of value in an attempt to validate an opinion. Here, watch…
Vanilla grew the playerbase from 0 to 7-8 million and it’s growth that dictates the quality of the game. Therefore clearly Vanilla was the best version of WoW.
This is why ‘best’ is nothing but an opinion. A person could use whatever qualification they want to define ‘best’. Of course that won’t stop some people. They lack the confidence to state an opinion and acknowledge it’s just an opinion.
OK one I can tell you i would be completely satisfied with dual speck because the thing is people aren’t going to ask for changes major changes until a problem comes up.
I mean let’s talk about the same faction battlegrounds for a second that’s a 300 times more major change than dull speck would be.
They didn’t implement something like that until legion by the way legion the very least dualis the very least dull speck was introduced in wrath.
And for the record no I can’t see them Try speck.
And maybe some people would ask for it but quite frankly I don’t know about you but I haven’t seen one single person mentioning unless it’s in the situation the way your viewing it.
Yeah they give us dual speck obviously the next step is going to be trice back let alone quite frankly the worst change they could make they’ve already done.
The paid boost and And the special edition cough cough storm out.
Now yes it’s absolutely hideous but it doesn’t change the fact they still put it in so if they’re going to put in stuff like that anyway and mark my words.
Faced 2 wow Token And the boost becomes unlimited.
Now you can call me crazy but that’s what everyone said about the boost so yeah door spec is not that badd.
For me that’s were major changes and would be dual spec.
Now what I care of they implemented transmogrify not really.
The LFG tool that they’re putting in the game is fine because it works very somewhere to the group finder they put in in legion.
Because you still have to talk to people because God knows the LFG channel is a freaking mess anyway.
So yeah I say #Dual spec