Purely subjective, I played and quit and replayed every expansion since cata. I remember logging out in Vashj’ir and not coming back till 5.2, and then playing through the rest of mop to 7.1, and then coming back in like 7.3 to quit again at the start of 8.2, to only come back in SL prepatch and then quit in 9.1 My biggest complaint progressively was that I hated how much of a chore the game felt, and that was only blown up in Legion with artifacts. I only enjoyed Legion once the patch hit where artifact power was made irrelevant, but come BFA, it started all over again, and again with SL. So I guess I’ve just been there and done that with the changes and even though I don’t remember every patch and every change, I remember how I felt, and how the fire and passion burned out compared to when I picked it up in TBC.
I wanted classic since WOD, and it was nice to experience it. I was #nochanges, but honestly, you said it best. Times changed. I don’t want dual spec, but, if it happens, it happens. I’ll still play till I don’t have fun anymore.
I’ve been trash posting like all day with only a few real posts here and there, but thank you for conversing as well friend. I can’t say you changed my mind as we’re both still against dual spec, but it was nice seeing someone else’s perspective, and it was refreshing to read more than just “go to retail if you want dual spec so badly”, especially since retail… Doesn’t have dual spec?
It is already having a domino effect. A lot of my friends are quitting and I and another friend who have played since day 1 on classic and were hyping each other with videos of classic for a solid year before it even came out are also quitting when WOTLK comes out.
The reason is 100% the deviation in design philosophy they have switched to since TBC.
The boosts/paid mount was truly the crack that broke the dam.
I don’t even want to see what “WOTLK Classic” looks like. The spirit of what classic is/was will have been completely siphoned by that time.
Specalization, shorthanded to “spec”. Idk why but “speck” is giving me aneurism.
You mean the change, you say posted on a retail Human, that allows Horde to finally not spend hours in queue for a single BG? An issue Horde has had for years, and is only exacerbated by the fact that Alliance have a victim complex and queue less due to it. You mean that change that allows players to play the game over a literal QOL change that provides nothing more than convenience?
What?
So because a trash change was made, we should make more changes instead of putting our heels in the dirt and resisting?
I don’t like change, but I want change and I want this change… Alright. Tbh I’m ok with LFG, because it existed in classic, and remade to be better in TBC, and then got replaced in LK, but not because it was in Legion.
Technicality, huh? There’s no technicality here. The peak sub happened when the peak sub happened. For some reason you feel the fact that was early Cata somehow means your opinion that Wrath was the best version of WoW comes crumbling down. I mean…that’s a you problem.
Store, faction change, dual talents, LFD, etc were implemented in LK. The base, OG game had that… So, unless you’re expecting something radical like heroic+ for LK, I don’t see how this “future” variation of TBC would be so wildly different in LK, as it would mimic LK quite well with those changes.
Or do we all have rose colored glasses on like in mop when we originally asked for classic, and we still have them on expecting LK to be come magical wonderland where all these “retail” traits don’t exist, when they did.
Technicality: the specific details or terms belonging to a particular field.
Yes, you are using a technicality, you are focusing on a specific detail, ie, the peak of subs, in the field of wow subscribers and this conversation we are having.
I’m sorry if the English language isn’t technical enough for you to also use it as a technicality.
Going back to the fact that you’re focusing on a specific detail, you are actively ignoring the why.
You are only caring about the effect and not the cause.
So if you want to be a literal T VV A T about this and be a smoothbrain because your artistic (I know what I spelled) mind wants to do mental gymnastics to try to make some scuffed point, then go for it, but it’s a weird hill to die on.
Cata had the peak BECAUSE of Wrath was the most consistently played expansion and was the catalyst to provide cata with the “peak sub count”. The sub count is directly attributed to LK.
Same concept, different scenario, it’s like then Fox news went on the day after Biden got inaugurated and started blaming Biden for the bad economy, despite the fact that the economy was in a bad state due to the previous president and that Biden didn’t have even take action in that small window of time.
You are Fox news in this example. It’s a cold scuffed take, I know it, you know it, we all here know it, but you’re determined to make your trash last stand on this hill, so, whatever, die on that hill.
Wouldn’t be anything particularly wrong with tri spec. #no changes was a silly concept to begin with.
Logically each subsequent expansion will bring us closer to retail regardless of any one change made to any one aspect of the expansion itself.
They could add domination sockets into tbc and it still wouldn’t be retail
What were playing is tbc with the benefit of 13 years of experience and expertise. Additionally, developers have better learned to understand players and there preferences over the years. Had they better understood those things you might have seen dual or tri spec the first time around or perhaps you’d just be able to change on the fly like some other games.
It’s okay to just say you prefer the game without changes, and that’s cool, but I’d be willing to risk all my gold to you that if they arranged a poll as a simple yes or no do you want dual spec the answer would be overwhelming positive in the affirmative.
The good thing though is neither you or eye determine what blizzard will do that’s been a mystery to many of us all the time. So open your mind to change we have many more to come during this journey let’s enjoy them together.
Worse case you and I might need to find a new game to enjoy. I do happen to know of one that is not only critically acclaimed, with a free trial til level 60, and well if that’s no good for you perhaps check out New World or slug it out in Diablo 2 coming up.
I’ve already explained why the why is irrelevant. I’m not having a debate. I stated a fact, and the fact is the peak number of subs was early Cata, not Wrath. There is no technicality there. It’s cold hard fact. I’m not sure why you can’t accept that, but then some people can’t accept we landed on the Moon or that the Earth isn’t flat.
I’m moreso talking about what the players will do with it meta-game wise. Wrath was dogcrap imo the first time around. The term “wrath baby” was a thing for a reason. IMO Wrath was the first “retail”. I know a lot won’t agree.
No, you haven’t. All you said each time, I can sum it up in one sentence is “I dont care about the why I only want to die on a techncality so I’ll repeat it because I have literally nothing else to say or any way to defend myself because I know the “why” will kill my entire stance on whats “best”, and I’m not having a debate I just keep replying just because.”
2/10 for posting ability, 11/10 for cringe.
Ill break this down so even an idiot can understand it, imply what you want.
Cause has an effect.
Effect has a cause.
Cause: Lich King was the most explosive expansion and saw the highest level of player growth, and when it ended, people stayed around to see the end, and to see the start of Cata.
Effect: Cata ended up having the highest sub count based off of LK’s success, and instantly threw it out the window, and we have seen lower sub counts, with exceptions for major content drops, daily, until Blizzard got embarrassed and hid their analytics.
The why is very much of importance to the point, you’re just another smooth brain old man who think’s he’s winning something by exhibiting his ability to be an absolute mongoloid while pretending to ride a high horse.
You’ve successfully proven to this entire thread that you’re just a man with a room temp IQ.
Why is completely open to interpretation, therefore it’s just another opinion defined by whoever is making the argument. Ok, so why did early Cata have the highest peak subs? Because Wrath had a lot of players, and Wrath existed because TBC which laid the groundwork, and TBC existed because of Vanilla so therefore without Vanilla the game wouldn’t have even existed beyond that point. So the answer as to why is because Vanilla laid the foundation for what came later.
Once again we use an arbitrary definition to assign some personal value. It means nothing. It’s just personal bias using whatever argument suits the narrative. You know what doesn’t have bias? Numbers. Thus the WHY is irrelevant in the question of when the subs peaked. Because, first, it doesn’t matter. And secondly, you can say whatever you want about the WHY. A million different definitions and interpretations.
But what this all boils down to is that someone said that WoW had peak subs during Wrath, and I pointed out it was actually early Cata. Again, that’s not an argument. That’s not an opinion. That’s a fact. The WHY doesn’t enter into it. You can obsess over that all you want. It doesn’t change the reality.
Wrath was the first retail, but we use retail like it’s a horrendous word and I don’t know why.
I know what Wrath baby is, I was there on launch on my 55 hunter because I was bad and young, painfully young, and it took me 3/4ths of TBC to level to just that.
That said, I don’t feel like the changes made in Wrath were inherently detrimental, atleast not the ones made by Blizzard. I remember the biggest outcry was gearscore, a player made addon that could easily be manipulated, ontop of linking unbuffed dps via another player made addon.
So while we can look back and go “yeah F LFD it’s stupid and I hate it” I can almost guarantee that most players, including the boomers on these forums who are die hard nochanges classic, enjoyed LFD when it dropped.
The modernization of wow is an ongoing process that will only stop when the game itself stops.
I’m sorry that your friends quit, and the rest want to quit in 2 years, but honestly, if an untouched recreation is all you want, knowing damn well that it’s run by Activision, then good luck, and godspeed, because I know I have no hope for an unchanged variation of the games I loved with them in charge.
You’re throwing me off calling it LFD and not Dungeon Finder. But yeah…I liked it when it released. The thing is with time comes wisdom. We can look back at the past and learn from it. And the cross-realm nature was very bad for the game and awful for the community. Still, it was in Wrath (though not for the majority) so I assume it’ll be there in Wrath Classic.
Not really. It depends what “boomers” you ask (most were millennials btw, the population boom of wrath was almost entirely millennials). Many of us came from games where community was much bigger of a factor and systems like even gryphons seemed a little easymode. WoW in general was made fun of for being the “carebear MMO” when it first came out. Let alone Wrath.
Where I am getting at, is the core “vanilla WoW” fanbase that loved EverQuest did NOT love wrath. so if those are the “boomers” you are talking about I can assure you the same people that came from Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, or EverQuest did not enjoy the easier, retail-like systems wrath provided. They actively complained against them at the time… I was there.
Not only that, but after wrath subscription numbers started to drop drastically. You can argue this was because of cataclysm but it was also because everyone was fed up with what WoW had become. Just look at classic.
edit: I would also argue sub numbers were at an all time high in WOTLK not because of Wrath itself, but because of the hype the past two expansions generated for WoW.
It’d be a great addition, and outside of a very spamming vocal minority of people I’ve talked to or met, no one seems to remotely think dual specc would cause any harm to the game.
You still have to pay respecc costs if you swap a second specc, you just have a second load out tha isn’t gonna charge you 100 gold to use. Want to change one of them? Guess whose paying gold to respecc.
Making things tedious and inflexible doesn’t make a game good, tedium isn’t difficulty, hassle isn’t fun.
Here’s to hoping blizzard does add dual-spec to the game, it’ll be a welcome addition, even if it does cost the 1000 gold it required to get originally not the 100g.
Yes the first game is the first game. Genius cracked the code.
I’m only using the word best to trigger you.
Yes, but numbers mean nothing with, stay with me here, C O N T E X T.
You only flash numbers, not even good ones on your trash jpeg, which even shows that there is an official blizzard count, and an unofficial estimation because the n u m b e r s fluctuated so much, so where is the fact in that when the “fact” itself says that it could be right, or could be wrong.
No, it’s pretty clear what the cause and effect are. If I rolled a good sized snowball down a hill, and picks up snow and speed, and then hits someone knocking them over at the bottom, we know the effect was the person was hit, but the why is entirely on me being the catalyst of picking up snow, balling it up, and then pushing it down. The catalyst is not the snow itself for existing, or even the hill for existing prior to the snow. (Just like how TBC laid the groundwork, being the snow, and is irrelevant, or the fact that vanilla was the first, being the hill, which is also irrelevant to the why.)
You’re attributing the peak subs to cata itself, when those subs were there for Wrath, and like I said previously, rolled over into cata. If those subs stayed at the same level, even say, 6 months in, then yeah those are cata subs, but they didn’t. They dropped almost instantly. If I run 5 miles and 7 steps, I didn’t run 6 miles. I only ran 5. When the subs “peaked” in cata are entirely dependent on roll over subs from wrath, then you can not reasonable argue that those are cata subs since they dropped very fast and very early into cata itself. Those were still wrath subs in the new expansion that hadn’t even had footing yet.
So like I said, you’re basing this all on a technicality without understanding, or understanding and outright ignoring all the context around the situation.
I think LFD is only a positive, and I’ll get to why with this next quote.
The community may have been good back then, but I was hard in the pvp scene and it was painfully toxic. Not MW2 lobby on 360 toxic, but it wasn’t a friendly environment. I wasn’t too hard in the pve scene, but I remember hearing and seeing that it wasn’t much better.
The “Community was so good” is all rose colored glasses. Remember Serenity Now? Alliance guild in 2006 crashed an in game funeral for a Horde member that had passed away. The community, whether it’s been a minority or majority, has always been toxic.
Shows your age. “Boomer” in more modern usage is to describe someone with an outdated, or boomer, mindset. It is not used to only describe a generation.
Yes, it was designed to be easy.
Then why play the easier game in the first place. Vanilla wow was designed to be easy comparatively from the start.
I was too, and yet the population grew by the millions because the game felt to have the right amount of everything. Those wishing for a hard experience could make it hard, those wishing for casual could make it casual. Those who wanted a hard experience got tired of leveling slowly and begged for faster ways to level and thus instance finder was born, but that’s a cup of tea the boomers don’t want to drink.
So are you implying that what “wow has become” was due to the continued success and growth of LK all the way to it’s final days, or are you implying that the drastic and radial overhaul of the game that cata brought made people quit? I quit in 4.1 as well, I went to Vashji’r on launch, a few days later got both achviements for the loremaster and the optional zone completion, and then logged out, not to log back on till 5.2. So which one is it. Are you blaming Cata, the game that is not Lich king and brought drastic overhaul that made people quit, or are you saying that one of the most loved and iconic expansions, that only saw continued growth made people quit… after playing it for 2 years?
So Lich King had it’s high not because it was a fantastic expansion, but because it rode the coat tails of TBC 0-2 years later and the coat tails of classic for 2-4 years later… Sure, so if LK was so bad, did you play it for any long period of time, complaining all day every day to then quit conviently when cata dropped, or are you a man of your word and quit most of LK only to come back from time to time to see if it was the “original hard sweaty game that was classic”?
TLDR. I stopped reading at the “shows your age” thing. I am 30. Like most people playing WoW. I am sorry I am not a broccoli permed haircut having, tiktok loving, flossing zoomer.
Please forgive me. I have committed the original sin of not playing along with your “okay boomer” schtick, to the point where you had to explain it to me! Thank you for wasting the past 30 minutes typing that.
You’re welcome, I’m glad you got so mad at pixels on a screen that you typed out that you didn’t read it. Go quit the game boomer, it doesn’t affect me at all, then you can go back to OSRS or whatever variant of a game you played prior to the launch of the “easy carebear game” lol
I have multi monitors and I definitely saw you replying in the corner of my eye for 30+ minutes. kek.
and you claim I am “so mad at pixels on a screen” and I have mental issues. nice projection. floss it daddy! It’s almost perm time, get to the barber shop!
