“Some blue posters have spicy opinions, so i’m going to bait them into answering me”
Here guys i saved you the hassle ![:roll_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
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I want to emphasize that this is not just something that happens with one faction. It happens across factions: Red, blue, Honor Horde, Sylvanas Fans, Anduin Fans, Tyrande fans. The toxic environment that has come about because of BfA is something that saturates the game itself, and I don’t want anyone trying to put more fault on one group or the other.
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Couldn’t agree with this anymore than I already do.
I’m 100% enjoying this faction war but the fact it has caused me to despise half the Horde community (WoW community to be honest) and most of the Alliance has had an effect on me more than I though It would.
I never want this faction war to end but I’m so tired of logging on this game and going to the story forums and being angry.
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I agree. I like healthy debate when it comes to lore stuff, as many of you have seen since I started posting on this forum. But I find that objectivity has been thrown out the window in a lot of cases, and more and more people seem to be popping up that think ‘debate’ is saying “no you’re wrong” over and over without any sort of discourse beyond walls of repetitive text.
This faction war will end, and things will move on in a way that will more than likely be annoying for almost anyone who cares about the story, but that’s not on the other players, or the NPCs, it’s on Blizzard. And while I’ll go back and forth with people into the wee hours of the night, I’m well aware that the main issue is the writers themselves, which is exactly what they don’t want.
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As a player, I appreciate the story structure and can generally remove myself. I can make fair moral condemnations and still see a person’s actions as logical. I defended Hellscream even if what he did was morally objectionable. But I don’t need to get into that.
Point is, I love being an Alliance fanboy and will take any opportunity to poop on Hordies in the spirit of rivalry because it’s fun. Sure, if the Horde was dismantled, things might be better for the Alliance but that’s exactly why conflict happens. Horde needs to wage war to survive and the Alliance needs to defend itself.
I feel like we’ve lost any sense of fun rivalry in this expansion. Fun rivalry is when both sides feel good about their faction and also don’t actually feel strong negativity toward players of the other faction.
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The post above me deserves many likes. Very well put.
I think you’re right that Horde fanbase has low morale because of the ugliness of War and I can empathize with that assessment. I do not think there’s actually strong negativity toward each other, not anymore than previously.
As an ex-Hordie, I remember a similar situation when war broke out in Cataclysm and the difference there was we were happy to finally flex our muscles and sieze ground: The Horde was finally seizing Kalimdor and taming the land. The Forsaken were out of the shadows and building a proud empire. That changed in MoP because of Garrosh’s decisions.
I think Teldrassil similarly really tarnished the war for the Horde because it was cold-blooded massacre and didn’t happen off-screen like the other cities Sylvanas destroyed. We SAW Teldrassil burn and were promised that the Alliance would peace out if we just occupied it (though reading the books I think Sylvanas straight up lied about that). This is why we keep seeing threads were the Horde wants to see the Alliance do nasty things to try to share the guilt of the massacre or maneuver the Alliance into somehow being responsible for the escalation.
The Horde never really got the chance to get excited about fighting for their side because all the glory of conquering Kalimdor was ripped from them by destroying Teldrassil and all its people within. It’s not that this tactic was unusual for Sylvanas, but it was for Kalimdor. Even Theramore had its evacuations and justifications.
They’re Horde fans, they’ve always had low morals. I kid, I know you meant morale.
I think this is where so much of the toxicity is coming from. I get Hordies are frustrated with Teldrassil, but rather than rallying behind Saurfang, which is the most moral thing to do for a Horde loyalist, many Hordies would rather moral precedent of the story do a 180.
If Horde players are not outright justifying genocide, or making massive logical leaps for the moral highground, then they are throwing temper tantrums in the story about Blizzard’s bad story telling.
Don’t get me wrong, Blizzard has gotten quite a few things wrong here. However, Sylvanas’ moral alignment is not one of them. The Burning of Teldrassil is nothing new for her, all the other times it has just happened off-screen, without Blizzard driving home the emotional weight of Gilneas and Southshore, like they did with Teldrassil.
Truth is, this has been the Horde since Cata, and arguably even during Thrall’s reign. It was simply more subtle, without an in-your-face cinematic to spell it out, it was easier for people to turn a blind eye to the morally ambiguity of the Horde.
So we have Alliance players, rightfully angry and upset at the Horde for Teldrassil and what is happening in the context of the story, and we have Horde players who have had their illusions of what the Horde was, shattered. The two directing their frustrations at each other and misconstruing their arguments, as their frustrations are happening within different spheres.
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Nah, even in Cataclysm the Horde was never painted as outright evil. In fact if anything i’d argue that for most of Cataclysm the Alliance was the largely evil, antagonistic, and ignorant race who were in some fashion or another trying to destroy the Horde for poorly justified reasons. It was a sympathetic reason, with the Horde often striking the first blow, but not often the right reason.
Generally the Alliance was shown to be needlessly bloodthirsty and cruel(I.E opening fire on the goblin ship in cataclysm or starving the orcs of resources for Wrathgate, even though they didn’t really have control of Wrathgate, the Twlights framing them, or the Cataclysm directly poisoning their water and food supply.) likewise in the Eastern Kingdoms the Alliance was by and large painted as an invasion force bent on controlling Lordaeron and slaughtering all the people within to solve their own problems. Even the Gilneans who were by far the most sympathetic of the belligerents open undead questing basically by invading Undead territory, attacking someone who doesn’t even know whats going on, and then telling them about how they all deserve to die and have their land taken for something they had no control over, which of course then promptly leads to the Forsaken PC joining the attack.
Hell, the end of that expansion is basically the Alliance Pope being revealed to be a harbinger of the Old Gods and dying far and away from the people of Stormwind, who would never learn he was the Twlight Father, not even now.
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This is what I was talking about.
The Horde -was- outright evil in Cata. To avoid this devolving into an evil Horde debate, then I will yield that Garrosh can be argued, Sylvanas cannot be. She gassed at least 2 civilian populations in Cata. That’s straight out of Bad Guy 101.
This point still stands.
Sylvanas? Absolutely, the actions she undertook were at many points just outright bad. But the Forsaken in general? Not really, their society had become ultranationalistic imperalists built around a cult of personality largely because humans, and the Alliance in general even, kept doing things to enable that society. It’s not surprising that after Vengeance Landing kicked off with a skirmish between the Forsaken and humans that the Forsaken clearly did not want that they just started playing hardball and took a bat to the Alliances knees.
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You’re just driving home my point.
the Forsaken are evil by their nature. Lillian Voss might be the exception here, but she never considered herself Forsaken until BfA, and she was very much an outlier. It’s not Sylvanas alone who gasses civilian populations, it’s the Forsaken who fanatically follower her, who put on gas masks and march in into undefended villages and leave no survivors. Those who are not cannibalized are raises into undeath… if they are lucky. If they are unlucky, they are captured and used in horrific experiments, enslaved, or used to make abominations.
It’s absolutely mental to think the Forsaken are not evil. Which is exactly what my post is revealing.
I can see you’ve never read Before the Storm, can’t blame you, it’s a Christie Golden book, but I have.
That’s the exact opposite message presented there. The Desolate Council wasn’t an exception of twenty dudes put in charge who were then killed and with it all the good of their race, they were a fully functional interim government setup while Sylvanas was away as a reaction to Forsaken societies conflicts with Sylvanas. It’s funny you bring up Voss as a possible exception when she is absolutely onboard with fighting the Alliance and believes they foster this malice, because of course they do, the human kingdoms have shunned their kin and that’s something repeated by every single undead NPC, even Zelling.
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Maybe you missed this, stands to reason, you are so gun-ho to argue with me, that I doubt you even read what I have to say.
This might have something to with:
Like I said, Much of the Horde’s (The Forsaken in particular) has had their evil appear much off-screen, with the emotional weight of their actions mostly swept under the rug. So, it is no wonder why Horde players feel blindsided by the Burning of Teldrassil. They had no idea they have been playing an evil faction until it was made inescapably obvious.
Oh, so you mean Forsaken as a political ideology rather then a race? Well even that’s false because the Forsaken, again, composed the Desolate Council and seemed like just fine people. Further, again in BtS, even Anduin admits that the Alliance was wrong in some capacity and that there were plenty of humans who hated undead simply for being undead rather then anything based in fact, in no small part because most humans didn’t even know what a Forsaken was.
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Listen i know garithos 100% deserved to die just so cosmic balance could be restored but you cant deny you guys fired the first shot.
If belves bring up alliance bigotry right before their regularly appointed pogrom then its only fair we bring all the facts to the table.
Both, actually.
You keep bringing this up like something called “The Desolate Council” is suppose to be an example of Forsaken moral rightness lol.
So? Anduin is a child.
Maybe, but then again, had they given it any more thought, I bet they would come to the same conclusion, because… well…
So… Yeah, before we derail this entire thread on this a Alliance vs Horde moral argument, which has been over-done as it is. How about we agree to disagree… You are only reaffirming my point. I completely believe you are willfully delusional and bias.
I mean if you think a group of people can survive without a home in a planet that is actively hostile to them, and also think that Garithos would of agreed to helping the Forsaken without being promised Lordaeron, I genuinely don’t know what to tell you. That is so unrealistic it actually borders on madness, the options were basically betray Garithos, or die, choose.
As for Akiyass: You actually haven’t read the book have you? That’s why you don’t want to address my point. ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
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