Projection would require me to deny that the quality I am describing exists within myself,
I don’t think it does. After all, if you think it’s a defense mechanism, a defense of “Everyone else is doing it too” is about as good as “No, I’m not doing it”. It deflects the behavior off of you and puts the blame on something or someone else.
Blizzard does encourage people having an attachment to their preferred faction, but if you choose to take that low level transitory sports-like team identity and blow it up to being equal to your real-life persona and then decide to argue or cheer with the same vehemence or “toxicity” you might display at a radical political rally, it’s 110% your own fault.
It does though, because the entire purpose of projecting the attribute on another person is to, in effect, shift blame. The shifting of blame entirely off yourself and onto another is what makes projection projection. Further it would also require me to think that on some level the people involved aren’t at fault, when often people become more heated and defensive then I would like them to be.
I’m not really saying it’s a thing that is entirely on Blizzard or entirely on the playerbase, the entire purpose of the thread is to create some discussion on why this happens and what we can do about it, regardless of whose at fault.
Wait for the inevitable apathy to settle in once you lose the ability to care anymore, at which point it becomes easy to see and discuss how the story is one gigantic bowel movement.
You don’t need to entirely deny your own engagement in that attribute in order to insist that someone else is actually to blame. On the contrary, it’s a common move for someone to show faux self-deprecation by admitting some instance of their own fault in something only to claim that another party is truly the cause for concern, it presents the person as humble and conciliatory even though they’re pointing the finger at someone else. I think you do this in the OP by admitting that you’re “occasionally hyperbolic”, have “strong views”, and have gotten “visibly heated”, and then rhetorically asking “What could possibly be making me so irritated?”, before stating that it’s Blizzard’s fault for engineering things to be that way.
Ultimately that’s shifting the blame for your own behavior off of yourself and on to Blizzard when in reality they can’t control how you think or conduct discourse with other people, they can only create a context for discussion. And faulting context for your own wrongdoing is a failing argument because it denies your own free will. After all, if you can point out that excessive tribalism is the cause for toxicity on certain topics, you should be able to avoid engaging in it and contributing to the issue. If you can’t, that means the cause for your irritation really is you, because you lack the self-restraint not to treat a fictitious identity with the same gravity you apply to your real political ideals.
I disagree about the game “pulling us into real life”. I real life the tortollans in each isle would have ended up tied to each faction and would be military targets from the opposite faction (anyone who has lived through armed conflicts knows the moment you try to play for “both” teams is the moment you become free kill on sight, either by simple pettiness or actual strategical reasons. This is why Jaina’s and Theramore’s stance on Cata following the Shattering was so idiotic; cause true neutrals either stay the f away from the conflict or use the flag of internationally recognized groups like the Red Cross under the express orders of helping civilian and only civilian populations).
This is just them writers mistaking the deliberate generation of a toxic environment between their customers with good quality writting or popularity, period. No race nor faction nor protagonist character are believable enough to make them truly relatable to players.
At the same time that is a slippery slope argument, because acknowledging you are also partially to blame is not inherently a form of fake self deprecation and can easily be in fact to emphasize that not all blame should be shifted onto another person when that’s not the intent, that is not inherently a form of projection. But it is by nature yes, placing some of the blame on Blizzard rather then just myself, but I think that’s a perfectly valid viewpoint to have for the following reason:
Primarily the fact that anything, even a work of fiction, has some psychological element that impacts people in ways they can’t inherently control. Someone who writes a piece of fiction must know about these things on some level to get an audience reaction, the best works of fiction can inspire people to be sad, angry, happy, contemptuous, etc towards a person or event without us the reader, being sucked out of our immersion enough to realize it.
Those feelings don’t just vanish after you stop reading or watching something either, they often stick with you even when you try to disconnect. It’s unfair and, I would even say just plain wrong to assume that a creator bears no responsibility towards the environment they create with any piece of work and they can’t control how the fans feel. The entire purpose of fiction is to evoke these things, and that comes with baggage.
Blizzard through their story writing, their advertising, and their mismanagement of communication have created an environment where these negative emotions flourish. It is the fault of the people for taking these things way too far, but Blizzard inherently bears some fault for building an environment where this very predictable outcome occurred, the entire point of the faction conflict is to pit players against one another, and thus mishandling it will in and of itself create toxicity by nature.
Further the second part of your post about ignoring excessive tribalism because you’re aware of it does seem a little faulty to me. People do not have perfect free will, for a variety of reasons our emotions cloud our judgement even when we try to suppress it. The way you framed it seems to imply that being aware of something means you can always avoid it, which is just an unrealistic expectation to have for other people, fictitious identity or not, especially when that fictitious identity is starting to mix in with those real world ideals.
It’s hard to always separate them, because part of the problem is that a lot of these things are comparable to real world politics. Sure you could argue that a person should always be able to emotionally detach from a product and that no one really has control over them, but years of studying psychology has taught man the opposite: That our brains don’t have as much control that we think they do because everything we believe is a product of our perception. That books, movies, advertisements are tailored to make us feel things that we wouldn’t normally feel.
Blizzard does encourage you to hate the other faction. I think they see this as getting you engaged in the story. Because, in part, of how bad discourse is in this country, it amplifies in the forums. I think that actually toxicity in the player discourse causes them problems, like the “faction bias” memes.
One problem is that, ad-hominem attacks where you attack the person, have become a staple. Not only is this a fallacious argument (a statement is right or wrong, no matter who says it or why) it is inflammatory.
Now, sadly, US politics are full of these and I think people have increasingly become used to them and it spills over into other forms of discourse. I remember when you didn’t have stop political discussion out of fear that it would destroy a social setting.
en.wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Ad_hominem
“.”'s replaced with “(dot)”
No, because it’s not stating that one thing will lead to another in sequence, it’s merely stating a rhetorical tactic.
Yes, but that is not the case here. I didn’t mean faux as in you might not believe the depreciation you were stating, I meant faux as in it is not to be taken as seriously emphasizing that blame does not at a core and first problem level lay with Blizzard. After all, you noted your tendency to be hyperbolic and then later in the post said that Blizzard engineered BfA to make us hate one another while simultaneously acknowledging it was an extremely hyperbolic statement and also insisting that it was the truth. If you believe you and your knack for hyperbole share part of the blame for poor discourse, why did you replicate that behavior in that very post? If your idea is that multiple parties share responsibility, don’t make statements suggesting only one party’s actions are the true issue, that’s exactly the kind of tribalistic us-vs-them argumentative style which you’re saying makes discussion here so toxic.
I wholly disagree. Yes, much of fiction is designed to make people feel things in some way, shape, or form. But people are not, or at least should not be, ruled totally by their emotions. It is not valid to say that because Blizzard encourages people to identify with their factions, they are also encouraging people to argue in some kind of toxic, tribalistic manner. That’s ignoring that everybody has the free agency to post in whatever way they so desire. Blizzard bears zero responsibility for someone allowing their fictional alignment to override their judgement and hold discourse on the basis of their emotions rather than evidenced fact or support, and it’s not unrealistic to expect a person to be responsible for what they themselves say rather than passing the burden under the assumption that the notion of self-control is so weak that it’s someone else’s fault for influencing them in some way.
In reality, people don’t display so many contentions towards each other in BfA because it’s Red vs Blue or Us vs Them or because Blizzard socially engineered everyone into sides that hate each other, it’s because Blizzard has botched nearly every facet of the narrative throughout this entire storyline. When they leave events, motivations, characters, and even the whole factions themselves vague, inconsistent, and outright contradictory, of course people are going to be extremely dissatisfied and prone to conflict, because all they really have to go off of is whatever interpretation of events they have in their own heads, which are all mutually exclusive and which all simultaneously contradict each other yet can’t be truly proven or disproven with the evidence we have available.
It has nothing to do with a fictive identity subsuming into reality and everything to do with Blizzard’s storytelling being so messy that nobody even has the capability to discuss anything on the same grounds because nothing makes any sense.
Fair enough on the bit about slippery slopes, what I meant to say with that was not that you were implying something would lead to another, but rather accepting that idea could lead to the idea that as you addressed later people were inherently arguing in bad faith and didn’t believe what they said.
However I would say you’re somewhat misrepresenting me. I did not say that it was an extremely hyperbolic statement, rather I said it sounded like a hyperbolic statement. I did not replicate the situation that leads to toxic behavior in that post because, at least in my view, I did not actually engage in a form of hyperbole. When I say that Blizzard has engineered a situation that leads us to hate each other I believe it, and I feel that’s consistent with my previous positions. I believe that if we were to portion out blame it would lay more with Blizzard entertainment then with us, that does not make Blizzard the only ‘true’ issue it merely makes them the largest of many issues which includes that knack for hyperbole.
I don’t find this argument compelling because it implies we cannot portion out a greater share of blame to one group of people without falling into the trap of Us vs Them as a mentality. The purpose of the post was not to absolve us of sin, but rather to say that Blizzard was the major factor in pulling us to where we are right now. That is not suggesting only one parties actions are the true issue, it’s suggesting that one parties actions are the larger issue.
Further I fully disagree with the notion that Blizzard shares zero responsibility for peoples actions because of the narrative they create and that they have not encouraged people to argue in some form that could be considered toxic. People have free agency to post what they desire but they are not immune to manipulation in the narrative to make them feel one way or another. I would also argue it IS unrealistic to expect people to be completely responsible for what they say rather then acknowledge that there are degrees of influence, and even if you have decent self control there are things in the world that emotionally alter your perceptions.
What you’re suggesting requires a degree of willpower and self reflection that it is not reasonable to assume each and every man who wants to debate to have. It’s something we should strive for certainly, and I agree it would be ideal for us to live in a world where people are not ruled by emotion. However with the rare exception everybody has emotions influence their actions to some degree or another, and there is an ethical responsibility for people who create fiction to understand the emotional consequence of what they write as well as the implication of what they put to paper.
I also contend that the botched narrative has to be the sole component of why people are upset with Battle for Azeroth. It is part of the puzzle but it is not the only reason why this is happening, I do not think it’s a reasonable assumption to say the social engineering present in the Warcraft franchise bears no responsibility. To us, the people who have been reading WoW lorebooks for years and read WoWpedia entries it is easy to say that we are not influenced, after all we are looking at things through the meta, but the meta is not what many people enter WoW lore discussions for.
People who enjoy their stories often do so from the perspective of one faction, or even just one race, and Blizzard in many ways encourages this with merchandising, themed mounts/gear/tabards even pets, when you’re wearing red or blue youre supposed to feel like you’re part of something bigger then yourself. I almost feel like the ‘Two Sides to Every Tale’ achievement coming out next patch is in some way a response to the negative consequences that came with sequestering information. Horde and Alliance are unreliable narrators, the facts they are presented are warped to fit within the confines of each faction, and occasionally those facts aren’t even brought up at all. To the average person entering the Battle for Dazar’alor, they may very well believe that what Genn Greymane says during the flashback portion is the real sequence of events.
This isn’t a new thing either, the Horde and Alliance playerbases have always been somewhat combative just by their nature as opposing sides in the game. Often people have had strong opinions about who was right, who was wrong, and it caused civil discourse to break down there( as well(Looking at you Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria.) but it’s never been a razor focus on the faction conflict. In Cata it was all a backdrop to Deathwing, in MoP we knew Garrosh was evil pretty much from day one, it was relatively simplistic.
But BfA’s whole theme is faction conflict, faction pride, and it’s hard for many people to feel pride when their faction is wrong. This is the product and the story we were sold, and to an extent we still cling on to it even while publicly denouncing the concept of ‘faction pride’ in BfA as a meme worthy phrase. Blizzard has to bear SOME responsibility for looking at the powder keg that is Horde vs Alliance, putting it front and center, and by extension putting the fandom in direct opposition with itself.
Unlike Deathwing, the Old Gods, Sargeras, etc when we take things in the faction conflict the irrational part of our minds internalizes it as the other group robbing us of something. Maybe you can resist that urge, dismiss it as illogical, but I know I can’t and I don’t expect most other people to either.
However I would say you’re somewhat misrepresenting me. I did not say that it was an extremely hyperbolic statement, rather I said it sounded like a hyperbolic statement. I did not replicate the situation that leads to toxic behavior in that post because, at least in my view, I did not actually engage in a form of hyperbole.
I’d say it was most definitely an exaggeration. They certainly didn’t engineer BfA to make players hate each other, not in the sense that you’re supposed to feel that your side is right and the other side is wrong. Given the state of the Horde narrative, it would be almost laughable to think that Horde players are being led to believe they’re in the right. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that if Blizzard had actually gone that direction, the state of discussion would be far improved.
Something can be believed by the one saying it and be hyperbole at the same time.
I disagree, insofar as the reasoning you’re using to make that case. Rather than Blizzard influencing people towards poor discourse by setting them against each other, I would instead say that the poor state of the story is such that any discussion of that narrative will also likely be poor, because there’s simply too many contradictions for anyone to have a consistent basis from which to speak.
I think you yourself actually make the argument for this in the OP, when you say that while other expansions had focus on the faction war at various times, none have discussion as contentious as BfA. This points to the faction conflict itself not being the primary issue, but rather Blizzard’s poor storytelling compounding with time and reaching an all-time low in BfA.
Further I fully disagree with the notion that Blizzard shares zero responsibility for peoples actions because of the narrative they create and that they have not encouraged people to argue in some form that could be considered toxic. People have free agency to post what they desire but they are not immune to manipulation in the narrative to make them feel one way or another.
And here’s the problem, because many of the points of contention people have are very obviously not things that Blizzard is trying to use to manipulate emotions. In fact, at nearly every point that Blizzard has stated their intentions for how they want players to feel, reaction here has been almost the opposite. On the one hand you have things like people thinking Tyrande’s supposed empowering moment with the Night Warrior makes her look like a lame duck because of Nathanos, on the other you have people who think Sylvanas’ big crossing the line moment was at four or so different points and some who think there’s no such thing, you have interpretations ranging from Jaina being the most likable to most unlikable/most justified to least justified, Baine being courageous or cowardly, Saurfang being traitorous or heroic - Nobody can really agree on a single thing with just about any part of the story. And most of this disagreement doesn’t fall on different sides of the faction line, many of the topics I just discussed have the most vehement disagreement between people who primarily play the same faction.
If the situation was as you say, you would think Alliance or Horde posters would agree with those on their faction more than they disagree, but they don’t.
It isn’t unreasonable in the slightest to expect someone to think about whether or not what they’re going to say has support before they say it. And in fact, I think most people do do this. It just so happens that the story is in such a sorry state that there’s little support that backs proving or disproving anything in a definite way.
I have to ask, who are you talking about? Who is the “us” and the “many” here? Do you mean people on this forum specifically? When you talk about toxicity I’m really not even sure who or how you mean, because what you seem to be describing isn’t exactly what I see, because most people here tend to follow the story for both factions even if they’re more invested in one or the other.
I don’t think that’s quite right. In fact, in some ways the faction conflict was more present in Cata and MoP. But again, the main contention of people isn’t really the conflict between the factions, it’s what’s going on inside the factions.
Primarily, instead of the war itself getting us to hate the other side, I think it’s much more that faction conflict arcs are the only ones where the factions get focus, which leads to the glaring flaws in the writing of each side becoming increasingly apparent, because when the factions turn on each other suddenly it’s a whole different world of standards and practices compared to when they’re fighting a third faction.
You have to ask here, what parts of the fandom are in opposition with themselves? Because, again, it doesn’t seem like the breakdown is across partisan red/blue lines.
Sorry to interrupt your debate, but on this point it is almost exactly like the other side is robbing us. Due to the nature of a faction war, for one side to achieve something the other side has to lose something.
For Sylvanas to have her big moment at the end of War of Thorns, the Alliance had to lose in Ashenvale, Darkshore, and have a third zone go up in smoke with the actual Burning of Teldrassil.
There isn’t any other way to tell that story with giving Sylvanas her moment without the Alliance losing. You try to remove the Alliance losing you will also remove Sylvanas’ big moment.
They have tried that twice now on the Alliance side of things with Battle for Undercity and The Night Warrior bit. Blizz trying to write around Sylvanas losing at UC (sacrificing it on her terms) and Nathanos at darkshore (having him survive instead of being resurrected by one of the Val’kyr) caused the Alliance moments to thud.
I don’t think that’s an exaggeration because I fundamentally disagree with your assertion because the interpretation of the Horde narrative that is wholly wrong I feel only really occurs if you’re a Sylvanas fan, and even then that’s a maybe. If you are, after all, with Baine or Saurfang you are not really to blame for the actions happening. No Sylvanas is and the Alliance are also persecuting you while you are attempting to defend the nobility of the Horde.
IF the intention was to simply make you feel wrong, multiple things, including Saurfang himself would not exist for the Horde. Saurfang is a guilt trip for the Sylvanas fan PC specifically, if you are not a fan of where she’s taken the horde then he is an indication of something pure and noble remaining within it. The purity and nobility is definitely at odds with the Alliance playerbase who seem to be made to feel righteous in their crusade against us.
The Vulpera Despoiler Squads, the Zolaco Shoppers, the Void Elves twisting the creatures of the Zandalari and by their own admission the G’huun raid itself being canonically Horde is supposed to balance out the unsavoryness of working for Sylvanas by showing the Horde is doing some good and in some cases it’s reasons for being so angry at the Alliance have some kind of justification. If that wasn’t the case, there would be no reason for those sort of things to be added o the game.
Secondly: I don’t agree that posters who are Horde or Alliance don’t tend to agree with people who are Horde or Alliance. I mean I don’t know about you, I can’t speak for your personal experience, but the Alliance block has been pretty unified in wanting us to go down and that any of the things I pointed out in the above aren’t really solid enough to wage a war on. Horde opinions on the other hand are far more varied between us because we’re split in between two groups conflicting with one another, but in both Honor Horde AND Sylvanas Horde I have heard the assertion that the Alliance needs to be defeated, it’s just that Sylvanas went way too far.
And I suppose with regards to ‘Us’ vs the ‘Many’ I view ‘Us’ as people take a lot of time to invest into the story from both sides of the conflict, researching things to look from the top on down. That seemed to be the PoV you were arguing from because I see the story forums as very factionally divided, even if we see the narrative as a trash fire.
Firstly, it doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with my assertion, it’s still qualified exaggeration and hyperbole the way you stated it. As for the Horde narrative, it’s absolutely all over the place, and whichever position the Horde player takes it’s constantly full of contradictions of motivation and depictions of characters. To say otherwise, that only one interpretation is wrong, both ignores that Blizzard actively allows us to choose that interpretation in-game, and leads us back to that conflict of having to prove why that’s the case rather than something else.
I’d say it’s in fact the opposite. A Sylvanas fan has no reason to feel guilty because of Saurfang, while “noble Horde” and Saurfang fans are forced to remain with the Horde, follow Sylvanas, and be guilt-tripped for doing so regardless of what they actually believe.
Not at all. Sure they’re made to feel morally superior to the Horde, but this is mainly because of what the Horde has done in comparison to them. And then you have the Horde being made out as morally culpable, while the Alliance is constantly warned against sinking to their level by their own leaders, often in a nonsensical manner like at the end of BfD. So if you’re an Alliance member who feels wronged by the Horde, like with most Night Elf fans, you’re constantly denied the righteous retribution that you’re owed, mostly by your own leadership. I think a lot of people hate Anduin more than Sylvanas for this reason, because while she’s an enemy, he comes off as a self-saboteur.
The Vulpera Despoiler Squads, the Zolaco Shoppers, the Void Elves twisting the creatures of the Zandalari and by their own admission the G’huun raid itself being canonically Horde is supposed to balance out the unsavoryness of working for Sylvanas by showing the Horde is doing some good and in some cases it’s reasons for being so angry at the Alliance have some kind of justification. If that wasn’t the case, there would be no reason for those sort of things to be added o the game.
I don’t think that is the intention with any of that. Most of those examples are so minor and fleeting, being contained to singular world quests or simply a street, that they just pass the player by if they’re ever noted at all. It’s certainly nothing compared to how the Horde is presented, even in content the Horde itself engages in.
While yes, most Alliance posters are together in terms of being against the Horde, that breaks down internally, because many Alliance posters also hate their own leadership and the fact they’re forced to be goodie-goodies that always turn the other cheek.
There are way more than just two groups of pro-Sylvanas and pro-Saurfang Horde, people range wildly on who and what they love and hate. Easily the most vehement arguments I’ve seen here have been between posters of the same faction about that faction, not between posters of differing factions about both.
After all, there’s not even much to say inter-factionally. The primary disagreement there is just about who started it, which of course Blizzard is contradictory on.
Of course people are more concerned with their own faction’s events over others, but I think the vast majority of posters here keep updated with both factions. Usually the only totally uninformed people are first-time posters. In the case of that, they’re not the majority of posts here anyway.
I mean it does, you can’t just point toward something and say that is hyperbolic and that makes it hyperbole. Exaggeration would require me to represent something as worse then it is, and I don’t think that statement is worse then what it actually is. There is no way, barring immense incompetence, that Blizzard would not know the already strained relations in the Horde and the Alliance fanbase could not easily be blown up by this narrative. It may not of been their desired outcome, but it is at the very least negligence on their part to handle it so poorly and create a toxic environment by extension.
What they have done is engineered an ad campaign and a story that encourages toxicity, the aggression that is on display in BfA is not the result of just bad storytelling. We have had tons of bad stories in the past, but the stakes are both higher for us now and directly related to how much the other faction narratively succeeds or fails.
That is just the nature of faction conflict, and this is an expansion that revolves around said conflict. The most oft repeated thing I hear when it comes to this topic is this: The faction conflict worked far better as background material rather then front and center, when doing anything on either side causes someone to gain at the expense of another. Not only does that drive irrational hate towards other faction members(Especially when some of them defend it happening.) but it also creates a feeling of helplessness that amplifies that situation a thousand fold.
You do not need to be a psychologist to figure this out, the expansion they put together was always destined to potentially be destructive to the fanbase. Even in an extremely well told story the gains and losses from each side at the hands of the other faction was always going to ruffle some feathers.
In regards to Saurfang and Sylvanas fans: That’s why I said intent, some people who are really into Sylvanas will not feel guilty no matter what she does. However some people who liked Sylvanas because of her plausible deniability, because she COULD be doing this for the Horde as Alex said, would understandably feel very upset at whats going on. You can’t deny that Alex purposely building a character to be controversial between Horde players and then choosing to pull the rug out under one side or another was not going to lead to toxicity both within the horde and between the horde and alliance, no matter how well executed it was. The fact that some Saurfang fans also feel like they are being subsumed by Sylvanas and her Horde just goes to show how mismanaged this was an ultimately gave us a story that few people, save people on the Alliance, would actually be happy about.
In regards to Anduin vs Sylvanas: For me at least? I haven’t encountered that many people who actually hate Anduin more then Sylvanas Alliance side. Even among the crowd who views Anduin and Jaina as self destructive to their own faction they aren’t given any reason to not feel good about fighting the Horde. Sure the Alliance leaders blame the leadership of the Horde, but the Horde mobs are by and large cackling mad psychopaths you’d have little problem dispatching or even feeling good about killing, it’s just if you’re an Alliance player who wants the WHOLE Horde to pay with some kind of atrocity or something, this story isn’t going to scratch that itch.
In regards to the bad things the Alliance does: Sure it’s halfbaked but if the intention was for us to feel wrong about fighting the Alliance, that wouldn’t even be there at all, why make the Alliance so cartoonishly evil for one segment of Dazar’alor that they are going on a holy crusade to purge the area with Molten Giants, then feed you an unreliable narrator story, if not to give you some kind of reason to punch them in the face? Just…world texture to some Alliance being bad just because? This is what gets me about this line of reasoning: The notion that Blizzard deliberately made things so one faction would feel wrong in whats supposed to be this faction pride expansion, rather then the more plausible in my eyes reason that they just engineered it in such a way to encourage conflict…cause it is after all the faction conflict…and went too far seems absurd to me.
And obviously i’m not saying that Alliance and Horde don’t infight between their posters, because of course they do, i’m saying that the way this is setup makes it so that we’re encouraged to fight blue team or red team more then our own team…well except the Horde, then it’s just a mess all around, and even when i’m fighting with Honor Horde we often seem to agree in that we should still be fighting the Aliance after this. On the alliance side being a goodie goodie might not feel great, but it’s not like it makes you want to stab Sylvanas or her fans less just because you are also at war with your own identity.
I also can’t really say that the most heated discussions here, for me anyway, have been about my own factions identity. We disagree sure, but I tend not to get called a NatSoc apologist by other Horde.
I don’t know about dog whistles, but I’m certain there are a few prominent blue posters who are one drink too many from jumping on the forum and informing us all that anyone playing Horde is fundamentally depraved and needs psychological help. Certainly there are some spicy opinions lying just under the surface.
Me, I like to air mine full force: Teldrassil was not a genocide. No people died in Teldrassil. Only elves. The only crime was that they stopped burning at some point.
![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
![:kissing_smiling_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/kissing_smiling_eyes.png?v=6" ":kissing_smiling_eyes:")