Okay, so backstory time. I butted in an argument Darethy was having with Aki and we ended up talking about the killing of Garithos and what that meant for the forsaken and humanity going forward.
Altough lets be real here for a moment, at the end of the day it means nothing. W3 was the game where the OG alliance more or less died and Garithos was created solely to give the Elves a reason to no be in it, then in the undead campaign they needed to tie that narrative loose end and didnt think about how it would effect the larger setting.
(Much like some the stunts the Alliance pull this day are whitewashed/forgotten about/nobody cares, such is what more or less what happened here and the forsaken got lucky.)
BUT this is the SF we do things for banter and the sake of the argument. Anyway! My argument is that the forsaken drew first blood on humanity (and the few dwarves that were with garithos) and then complained the humanity didnt trust them anymore. Imo, there were many other ways the forsaken could have went about securing a home which i already mentioned above.
The possibilities were many, hell they could have a banshee posses Garithos (we know he was suceptible to mind control) and have his troops withdraw, whatever. After acquiring a home -one way or another- they could have reached out to the rest of humanity and go âsee! we helped these humans over here, weâre totally not the scourge!â
To prove to everyone who might care they deserved âlifeâ, LET THEM STAND FOR THEMSELVES.
(and before anyone gets on my case⌠yes, Garithos 100% deserved a sword in the face- no question about it. My complain is that the way Sylvanas and the forsaken went about it also makes them worthy of a sword in the face, and as such, humanity would realistically have very little reason to trust them.)
Mind you, this started between me and Darethy but any of you guys can also chip in⌠or simply watch as we decide the very fate of all undeath-kind.
Sylvanas and the Forsaken had absolutely no knowledge of Garithosâ racism towards the Blood Elves. As far as Sylvanas knew, Garithos was just the primary leader of the remnants of the Alliance in Lordaeron, and thatâs it.
Due to the nature of the situation in Lordaeron, with the Burning Legion controlling Capital City, and using it as their primary base of operations, Sylvanas realized she would need help to defeat her enemies, and reached out to the Alliance for aid. She formed a partnership with the leader of the Alliance forces in Lordaeron, and together they ultimately defeated the Burning Legion and wrested control of Capital City from them. However, directly after the Burning Legion was defeated, Sylvanas immediately turned on her allies and proceeded to murder them all, with remorseless prejudice.
So yes, the Forsaken were the ones who began the hostilities between themselves and the Alliance.
I sort of agree with both of you. Of course, the Forsaken absolutely shot first. However, Iâve long held a similar opinion to Darethy. That the Forsakenâs betrayal was born out of necessity.
Iâve often likened the situation to a plane crash, where one survivor may kill and eat the other out of desperation. It doesnât make the decision ârightâ, and it is still ultimately a selfish decision. Betraying Garithos was the surest way for the Forsaken to survive.
I also disagree with this, in only that Garithosâ fate is never made out to be that well known.
Whenever the relationship between the Forsaken and Humanity is brought up in the Lore, Garithos is never mentioned. So I disagree with the idea that it validates Humanityâs feelings towards them. Because when those feelings are brought up, theyâre often fueled by a hatred of their condition, not their actions.
This is made most apparent in BtS where Anduin seems to verify that the majority of hostility from the Alliance came from what the Forsaken were, not who.
Garithos just isnât ever brought up. Iâd even argue that his fate isnât well known enough to factor into the Human/Forsaken relationship. That Humanity canât use him to validate their stance simply because they arenât aware of what happened to him.
Oh i agree, it was still a vile thing to do. was just pointing out garithos was going to betray them but botched up his betrayal. It was basicly a race to stab the other in the neck. Both sides never desired peace, they just wanted the scourge gone.
They should have had the Scourge reanimate him, only for his raw bigotry to let me break free. He then rushes down to Stormwind to warn them of the âBanshee witch and her rotting hostâ.
And theyâre trying to explain how heâs Undead too, but he refuses to accept it and thinks he just has a really bad sunburn.
Someday, I hope we get a book detailing the events behind the Night Elves and Forsaken joining the factions. Thing is, Iâm pretty sure I know how itâll go down if it was written today.
Druids reach out to the Horde and are slain by Warsong Orcs while the ever-heroic humans come to the rescue of the Night Elves.
Horde side, the Forsaken reach out to the Alliance with Varimathras having the emissaries slain en route, making it look like the humans killed them, while in truth it was his plan to keep the Forsaken from growing too powerful. Then the Horde extends an offer and he decides to see whether or not the Orcs might be able to return to the Legionâs control, perhaps with their new allies.
Until reforged comes out Garithos -as much as it pains me to say this- was in the right here.
->Sylvanas literally tells garithos she wants revenge and nothing else
->Garithos helds up his end of the bargain.
->Sylvanas backstabs him
At no point we are privy to his inner thoughts or plans, his only crime against the forsaken is being a rude dick.
Even then, the -very- first action the forsaken under sylvanas do is to slaughter. Them. All. (Very likely the dwarves ironforge sent too) hell, even mind control could have been more merciful.
Hell, she could have a banshee possess him and then use him and his men to reach out to stormwind.
If thrall wasnt such a wuss and brought down the hammer on the warsongs the second they started **** with the nelves, Cairne would have been able to hook him up with unlimited lumber in 2 yrs tops
If they ever get around to adding in an Undead Heritage Armor questline, Iâll be sorely disappointed if Garithos and the circumstances surrounding the reclamation of Lordaeron arenât a part of it. Itâll be fun to see how Blizzard presents it to the players since theyâll be seeing it from the UD perspective.
My argument is no matter what garithos and sylvanas were going to ruin any human undead relationships. Either sylvanas kills garithos and the undead betray them, or garithos force the forsaken from lordearon, which means the forsaken have nowhere to live.
In the end, it was still a betrayal that sylvanas had plotted, but even if a less ambitious undead was in charge the human undead relationships would still be extremely hostile.
The 2 never were going to get along, at least with the ones leading them.
Pretty cool how everyone leaves out the particulars of how awful a person he was. Especially:
Trying to paint Garithos in a good light as simply âracistâ. Talk about revisionism! Not only did Garithos put his elven and dwarven allies on inconsequential tasks so that he and his humans could reap all the glory of war, but he pulled his humans away from helping Kaelâthas and the blood elves from defending themselves. Not only that, but imprisioned Kaelâthas for taking the aid of the naga and intended on executing him.
And all this BEFORE he and his men became min controlled lapdogs of the dreadlords. AND THEN Sylvanas came in, liberating him and his men from domination. âReached out to the Alliance for aidâ, my rear end.
Trying to paint the betrayal of Garithos in any light other than âjust dessertsâ is laughable. As soon as Balnazzar hit the ground he ordered the âanimalsâ to leave âhisâ city. With all the evil Garithos caused he got served with a just reward. Death.
Yeah, usually with Sylvanas mind controlling him just like the dreadlords did. Even instead of raising him into undeath, she executed Garithos just like how he planned on executing Kaelâthas.
Besides, if she did possess Gari, youâd claim THAT was eeeeevul because she was acting just like a dreadlord. You see how your narrow view leaves Syl and the Forsaken with no options at all? Do revisionists even care, outside of just wanting to argue?
I barely care about this topic because I have trouble separating WC3 Sylvanasâ actions from the metagame.
At the start of the game Garithos betrayed and tried to murder THE PLAYER (Kael at the time). At the end of the game THE PLAYER (Sylv at the time) finally gets revenge on him by beating him at his own game and then killing him.
So itâs weird to me when people complain that Sylv betrayed Garithos. Iâm like âwtf are you talking about, he betrayed ME first!â
I like how that leaves out the fact that the Night Elves stopped trading resources the Horde needed to survive multiple times. Which begs the question of why theyâre even in the Alliance in the first place seeing as theyâre the ones forced to do stupid plans that only bait the Horde into attacking them.
Try reading my post where Iâm the only one bringing up exactly what he did to Kael and the blood elves instead of glossing it over and just calling it âracismâ before you make another comment. Hey, good for you, you provoked an angry reaction on someone whom youâll never meet on an internet forum by being a deliberate jerk.
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