…
How is “worthy” and with “respect” to portray the Germans during the fascism?
If you’re going to invoke German Fascist Man on Garrosh, they should’ve had a few “Orc resistance against Garrosh” questlines and have a meaningful development of what it means to be a “True Orc”
Instead, Golden confirmed a few months ago was that Garrosh didn’t make the wrong choices, Garrosh didn’t just handle tragedy inappropriately, no, Garrosh was bad "because he was the Orciest Orc […] and when that goes unchecked, bad things happen".
ie Garrosh’s problem was that he was an Orc. His race is bad.
What he lived through and how he handled it wasn’t the root of the problem. Just being an orc.
Behold Golden’s internalized weird logic.
14 Likes
No his fundamentalist racial culture was bad. Some elements of one’s culture are toxic and archaic that through better education has to be eliminated in favor of a more progressive movement and changes.
Orcs were originally very warlike, tribal and they took what they wanted rather than making their own things. Basically your basic Orc sterotype though it varied clan to clan to be fair. Garrosh was an Orc fundamentalist, he grew up somewhere on the stories of what a “true orc is” and when he got into power tried to practice that.
1 Like
Then maybe you should let Forsaken fans speak for themselves instead of deigning to opportunistically speak for them for the sake of your own agenda.
lol now you have the gall to attempt to authoritatively assert how human fans feel too? Take off.
1 Like
We also have a pretty good understanding of why Orcs developed the way they are. It’s because Draenor was an extremely dangerous hellhole. Frankly, I don’t blame them for developing the way that they did.
1 Like
That is correct, but it isn’t what Golden said.
Golden attributed Garrosh’s problems to his being an Orc, and that Orcishness is something that needs to be checked and controlled.
And after she said this, Copeland and Gregory both agreed with her.
6 Likes
Golden said what now.
Lemme scroll up real quick.
She actually said that.
Maybe she misspoke.
Maybe she meant something else.
Because orcs come in so many flavors she couldn’t have possibly meant “default orc is WARGH SMASH?”
She also neglects to mention the complete lack of support from the other racial leaders Garrosh had as a Warchief. Which I’m positive was also a thing.
just watch the Thrall panel between Golden, Copeland, and Gregory
it was awful, lots of cringe
4 Likes
I think I’ve read you specifically talk about it before and and how you said Thrall’s empathy was from him being raised by humans when I’m pretty sure being raised as a gladiator does the exact opposite.
…I was lurking the Story Forums a bit. 
Edit: Also I’ll pass on watching it, Thrall deserves better than whatever the hell that panel talked about.
5 Likes
In alternative timeline, where lore can make sense (maybe):
iirc Accolonn at one point made an interesting comment about the last Garrosh “cinematic”. He said he would do the same things again. One of his first orders was to prohibit the use of the blight. What if it is related to what he saw?
Then we could go to the “mistake” aka Stonetalon. Then, in the raid he says
Garrosh Hellscream yells: The old one calls to you.
…
…I have SEEN it. IT HAS SHOWN ME. I HAVE SEEN MOUNTAINS OF SKULLS AND RIVERS OF BLOOD…
…
You think you have WON? You are BLIND. I WILL FORCE YOUR EYES OPEN.
So, if instead of the game of favouritism and mysteries for the sake of mysteries, there would be actual meaning behind why “the old one” needed “us” and maybe Garrosh regretting he could not “force our eyes open”, there could be something interesting.
But… that is a fanfiction territory, unfortunately.
p.s.: did you ever get the responce about the story being “planned years in advance”, btw?
gl hf
Do you want to have a fantasy races doing various fantasy stuff / explore the highs and lows of those things in various situations imaginable, or everything kicked to a “common denominator” aka “there is the right™ way for everyone to do things” approach?
gl hf
2 Likes
Yeah I fully embrace that there shouldn’t be a right approach that the story pushes. And this right approach is always our western liberal ideals.
So Garrosh being an orcy orc is not wrong to him or his culture. Thats just what they do while we as the audience can recognize that its bad.
If all races in wow and other fantasies suddenly start espousing the same values with some fun aesthetic like pirates, aztec or eastern looks then they are fundamentally homogenized and therefore boring.
2 Likes
Don’t these two stances contradict each other? If the audience recognizes a particular culture in the story as being bad, then it doesn’t matter if a character within that culture doesn’t see it that way; you just have a story where they’re both bad and wrong.
5 Likes
Nope lmao swerved
Saying his problem is that he was too much of an Orc is not blaming his culture but his inherent race.
On top of that they specifically said it wasn’t his choices that made him evil. Which in insane.
7 Likes
I am willing to accept that Garrosh was a mixture of nature and nurture. Orcs do seem to inherently be a bit more short tempered and prone to destroy stuff, but that is understandable based on their heritage to Grond and what he was designed to do. They were never intended to exist by Aggramaar, so there are not as balanced in nature as the Azerothian Titanforged. Mix that into the fact that Draenor was one brutal world, and you get a baseline orc. But that does not altogether decide things. It is like point 0, things get swayed from there by upbringing.
Thrall made massive mistakes in how he handled Garrosh, and a lot of blame for how things went goes to Thrall throwing the reins of power to a man who was blatantly not suited for it because he desperately wanted to avoid responsibility and run away to live a ‘normal’ life. (It has occurred to me given Thrall is Metzen’s write in… there are some ironic parallels to Garrosh’s terrible actions and afrasiabi…)
1 Like
Blaming what he did on his race, even partially, on a meta dev level is objectively bad writing and that is forcing something into WoW that has no business being present for a playable race.
Is flies in the face of Orcs Aren’t Inherently Evil In WoW
It wildly destroys the core race fantasy of the Horde fantasy from which all others are built and added to.
Absolutely not. That’s irresponsible.
2 Likes
Not at all, you just have to consider from which point of view we are talking about here.
And the audience would generally accept a modern liberal idealistic view of the world is the correct view. If every race and culture has the same views because the writers doesn’t want them to have those moral complications for their viewer they would have homogenized them. In fantasy you are kind of time traveling and peeking your head into different human societies that existed and what it would have been like if you lived during those times.
From an entertainment point of view imo they should lean into the failings of certain cultures like the Orc’s violent one but balance it out with certain good. So each culture has some part of what we find good and acceptable and others not so much. In the case of Orcs and humans perhaps have the ultra violent and might makes right culture for the orcs but make this universal so even if a woman is strong she has just as much as prestige as their male counterpart. Meanwhile you have the white knight stormwindian humans but you could have corrupt church and misogynistic society where… idk women are forbidden magic and people like Jaina are outliners due to skill and social status.
And in the story you could have opposite views to these cultures and seek to improve them.
I just think the entire orc culture being boiled down to how they handle conflict is what the problem. If we had a better in depth view of the rest of their society, then we would see both the good and the bad.
It’s like that one writer saying there is no homophobia or transphobia in warcraft. Why? There should be. Let’s deal with those stories, rather pretend they don’t exist.
You could have a very tolerant society while another is much more conservative, art imitates life after all, and I personally love these culture clashes.
Oh I understood that as more of a culture issue rather than a biological issue.
It does complicate things if thats true but then again… anyone except humans in wow could be completely alien to us. What if a fantasy made an intelligent mantis species that ate each other’s partners… like how do we deal with that lol?
I do not think that is quite what I said. For sure Orcs are not inherently evil. They are just predisposed to having a short temper and being a bit smashy. You can be a great person with those inherent traits, it is just something you work to keep in check. Garrosh, due to his personal situation, came to exemplify those innate traits in the worst possible way. It still was totally his decision to go down that path.
It requires careful planning of story beats to navigate that perspective point though, which Blizzard has never really shown themselves to have.
1 Like