I mean it goes without saying, and Blizzard is slowly losing its grip on properly portraying the faction rivalry to such a degree that I can’t even tell there are two factions anymore, just a list of characters who happen to be together in narrative 24/7 and seem like best friends who have survived hell together.
In fact, that’s what this expansion has done.
It has completely put the Alliance and Horde through ACTUAL SUPER HELL and forced empathy and shared pain between both groups.
Removing more of that precious rivalry. Because we’re now part of the same prison gang.
“well, these guys had Jamaican accents, so lets throw in some Caribbean stuff.”
“Well, these guys carried totems as weapons so… I guess they can be Native Americans.”
“Dwarves… They drink beer and shoot guns.” - “What about their scottish accents? Should we given them kilts?” - “Nah, Skirts are for women” -Alex Afrasiabi (probably)
Point is… Just because Blizzard has never done such a thing doesn’t mean much. They don’t do anything, and talking about it only distracts from the point. Starting from a point of cultural inspiration, and building it up into something totally unique is an entirely acceptable creative process.
The faction unfortunately, while it could have been a great vehicle to explore how these different races would work together, has instead been used as an instrument to destroy what I liked in the franchise, I can’t be a fan of such a “faction” if that’s how it’s going to be expressed.
As for whatever blood vendetta you think I have - do recall that among the reasons I oppose you is because you would similarly demolish or push out the Forsaken, who are a playable race choice that I will forever maintain should be respected. You do not get to tell whole playable communities to suck it up and pound sand because demolishing them in some way benefits you.
My position now is actually that the Alliance and the Forsaken can share Lordaeron, and it has been for months. BtS did a lot to change my perspective.
I don’t think they should have to any more share Lordaeron than the Night Elves should have to share Darkshore. When WoW released, they had it. That was part of the sales pitch to the game, period. People built their characters on that, they built their investment on that.
That’s apples and oranges and you know it. But keep telling yourself that I’m the unreasonable one when I can compromise on things that I care deeply about while you can’t.
I care deeply about a principle of respecting the playable races that you choose to put into the game. You’ve shown that you care deeply about a fantasy kingdom that hasn’t existed for over seventeen real-world years. One item of care is about players and respecting their choices in a medium that is very concerned with personal identity - and the other is… simply not.
Ah yes, the classic “my subjective emotional attachments are more important than your subjective emotional attachments” uttered without a hint of irony or self awareness from someone who just accused me of being narcissistic.
When Orcs are being screwed over by a narrative that casts them as bad guys even though that’s not what was originally sold to players, you will find me raising concerns about it.
When the Zandalari are sold a glittering empire only to then be humiliated by a raid by the other faction that they are not given the opportunity to answer for, you will find me raising concerns about it.
When the Forsaken have their identity destroyed wholesale as their position has been uprooted all for a story that no one wanted, you will find me raising concerns about it; and
When the Night Elves as a playable race are constructively destroyed for shock value to prop up that story, you will find me raising concerns about it.
My concerns are with a principle, and its violation.
Your concerns appear to end with a single fantasy kingdom - a subset of a whole other playable race - whose demise, if it were a person, would have been eligible to vote last year.
I started doodling this in Microsoft Paint before I took a step back and realized I’m a grown adult basically drawing a furry with all the technical skill of a toddler and fortunately my sense of shame outweighed the two minutes of amusement-sourced dopamine, but rest assured, the picture existed at one point (depending on how you define the word existence, because its anatomy would consign it to one of torture).
I’ll be completely honest I started doing more or less the same thing with the technical skills of a toddler, and I also stopped. I didn’t feel shame or anything, it just looked awful.
Your principle seems to be “nobody should ever have to be dissatisfied with the story” but you only ever extend that principle to a handful of people, usually Night Elves or causes that you have deemed complimentary to your Night Elf crusade, and completely ignore circumstances where different groups satisfaction is at odds with one another, most notably between Human/Lordaeron fans and Forsaken fans.
You want WoW to be consigned to a static status quo where nothing is ever allowed to change from how it was introduced in 2004, because RIGHT NOW, that kind of consignment would give you what you want (Teldrassil) and screw anybody else who would suffer from that. If other groups stand to benefit from a permanent status quo locked to 2004, you’ll happily accept their causes legitimacy. But those that don’t? You don’t care about them. You hold up people who are dissatisfied as exemplars of community sentiment (because you yourself are dissatisfied) and treat people who aren’t dissatisfied as obstacles getting in your way instead of other people with equally valid sentiments.
As long as you get yours, you’re happy (to the extent that you can even define what yours is, and to the extent that you’re even capable of feeling happy.) And no amount of pseudo-scientific nonsense that you throw at us is going to make this any less apparent to the rest of the forum.
It’s why you don’t even want to entertain the idea of the Alliance sharing Lordaeron with the Forsaken despite that being an extremely moderate position relative to this forums usual discourse. Because if a compromise can be reached there, people might ask why you can’t also compromise, a precedent that you find outrageous.
You know I just had a sudden thought. How the hell did Elune hear the Winter Queen but she couldn’t hear the countless souls of her (favored) followers most likely screaming her name as they were tortured in the Maw.
I think it would be inappropriate to say that I want nothing to change. Some changes have to be made to the game to make it fresh. New quests can replace old ones, new dungeons and raids and battlegrounds can and should be introduced. We can even revamp a zone here or there without causing a major issue, but to do something so drastic and so violently against existing player investment to draw out and cynically discard a major totem of their identity or destroy them almost wholesale for shock value? THAT I am firmly against.
You on the other hand are repeatedly on the record as wanting to destroy the investment of playable communities for your own personal enjoyment. You’ve moderated the statements because they’re in no way popular (and why would they be?) but you still fundamentally are interested in destroying major parts of the identity of other existing playable races to make room for humanity to have a toehold in yet another area - when they are already well established and represented where they are today.
I’m sorry that I would be the one to stand between you and your desire to destroy others’ investment in the franchise.
You keep on using phrases like “player investment” or “player identity” as though those are empirical, objective things rather than subjective, emotional labels that are in constant flux.
You’re applying your own sense of player investment and player identity to EVERYONE and assuming that it’s universal. It isn’t. I was and am able to hold on to my identity as a Lordaeron fan despite the fact that it has never been represented in WoW and probably never will. I don’t actually need the land to reaffirm my identity and investment, because my identity and investment is ephemeral, like everyone elses, and not subject to what you yourself have literally called “totems.” It’s why I can accept a continued Forsaken presence in Lordaeron despite everything that they’ve done and what they symbolize.
I’m secure in my identity and my experiences despite being denied my “totems” for nearly two decades. How come you can’t handle being without yours for a single expansion? Is your identity and investment that weak and pathetic? You won’t feel like a Night Elf unless you have the correct giant tree?
I have watched that identity come under attack and be redefined primarily at the hands of developers who wanted to promote the things that they liked at my expense for a decade now. The experience has been awful, and it has recently come to light just how little those same people cared about their own employees, let alone their fans, against whom they have displayed a repeated pattern of spite, contempt, pettiness, and bias.
How could I stand by or endorse someone who acts the same way towards another player community? I know that you want to make this about me, but this particular conversation primarily ISN’T about me, it’s about Forsaken fans, and your desire to come in and wreck what they were sold and what they invested in - in a manner that in fact makes an amicable solution impossible - not a situation where both sets of interests can be addressed (because of how you have and continue to frame them), but a straight-up trolley problem.
Now we have discussed the various ways that video games have and do cultivate investment. I base my opinions on the research I’ve done, the lectures I have listened to, and the materials I have read. All you have done in the meantime is walk in with the nonsensical subjectivity defense to cover for the fact that you are an extreme outlier whose interests in no way should outweigh the communities that you would discard for your interests.
Humans as a playable race have more than a sufficient place of establishment and investment. Their identity has never been seriously attacked. Their characters are often prominent, and they are shown as being competent and capable. That they don’t also have this one specific place run in the specific way that you want is so minor of a concern to me that it’s not worth talking about, certainly not when you demand to either replace or vandalize the investment of entire playable communities to get there.
