I mean we just lost 3 leaders, and that’s not even counting Vol’jin. There’s isn’t much explanation to be had from them. I think Baine and Lor’themar are the only outliners. Baine is BFFs with the Alliance, and we all know Lor’themar is about protecting his people.
I mean, explanations that happen year(s) later after relevant events have a rather limited value for the target audiece from my experience.
Example: Cata was released in late Nov 2010, (pre-patch was), and it did make quite a few people either stopped being interested after the change of Sylvanas’s actions and character, or had other questions about wth is even happening. Edge of Night was good enough for some people, but it was released only in Sep 2011, when a lot of damage was done already (maybe it was an attempt of damage control)
gl hf
Huh? Sylvanas wasn’t Warchief in Cata.
Edit:
We’re talking about accountability for WoT.
I would not say it’s slow. I’d say it ridiculously fast. Like “Elune supposedly cares so much about the WQ!” or “it’s Ardenweald, it’s important”. It’s a place which did not exist till a patch ago. Who in the right might would expect it to have even remotely close emotional value for people who spend dacade+ with former lore and values?
Story feels like a sprint from one “hype” moment to another. “What, aftermath of the events? Who cares, let’s just rush to the next story!” Strarting with Legion it’s especially oddly handled IMO.
IMO the things is, this is not q new IP. It’s an old game. With pre-existing audience. Audience that has expectations, old knowledge, old things, big and small, important to them.
So, I do not think that trying to repurpose old ideas for new things is a valid path. Alt timeline, or another game / product altogether - sure. But not what we have currently. It’s like with Star Trek, people who like Pikard want to seem not for a story where a mediocre writer wants to humble the character. And the same here, people hopped into the game (I’d assume most people, but it’s an assumption) not because Anduin / Jaina / Sylvanas is in it, and the game should be about “big characters”.
IMO the problem is not that we travel there, but that the devs willingly chose instead of building in ontop of old lore, to create a clean story, and disregard or try to retro-fit older lore into new “vision”. With the added problem of it being, let’s say, arguably worse than clunky vanilla storylines.
There were I’d say at least 2 “eras” of story telling. Pre-Cata (and arguably it already started to emerge bout halfway through WotLK) where the stories are more of a context about why things happen, what are the places, what is the “place” of the player in the event, etc. Then Cata+ is heavily “hero factory” with the narrative being “look, this character is sooo cool” which might not be why people play the game to begin with.
gl hf
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The problem with all this faction war tally counting is that people are going to care more about their preferred group and faction, making it harder to accept the other side’s perspective, especially when the tally mark on the other side is not a complete clone.
Did the scorched earth move with Undercity make the win unsatisfying for Alliance? Yes.
Did it make it any better for the Horde experience? Not really. It was still our clearly evil Warchief getting her “you think you have me, fools?” moment and riding off. It wasn’t Saurfang hyping up a “we will be back!”. And the whole battle was still in the context of vengeance for… you know… the genocide.
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I’m trying to say that the explanation of WoT should’ve been avaliable before 8.1 hit the live servers.
gl hf
None of this really resolves the Night Elf need for victories, justice and retribution against the Horde and their many crimes.
Our conversation is not just WoT at this point its pretty much everything. A lot of Alliance players have had unresolved issues since Cataclysm. The Horde killing and destroying Alliance is not a new thing.
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Nah they did
- Gothic Cathedrals
- Bishops, Archbishops, Deacons
- “The Prophet” Velen, who led an Exodus
- “Crusade” motif in a few groups
- The use of Phi for the Church of Light (which IRL was used by Christians because Light = Phos in Greek, and Christ = The Light)
The developer intent back in TBC was for Naaru to be WoW’s Angels. It’s in the dev interviews.
They actually based the Naaru design on the geometric patterns of the Draenei architecture.
Add onto all of this that right now the lore is building up to it being revealed Double Predestination exists in WoW (ie some people exist to be damned in the Maw) and Absolute Predestination as well (ie there’s no true free will).
The metaphysics of WoW are getting reckless and messy and incoherent.
Y’all just ignore Smallioz lol he’s just Blue Erevien, they both agree that the Horde leaders need to be put to firing squad lol
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I mean, the church of the light has a lot of the Trappings of Western Christianity, but the actual worship/dogma/lore of the church of the Light is so different than Christianity that I just don’t feel like it’s a close enough analog that it’s worth getting hot and bothered about the thought that the Light might not always be 100% benevolent.
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The light not being benevolent would be a non-issue if they had built up the cosmology already.
As it stands, we have no instance of a “benevolent” member of the Pantheons of Chaos, Death, and Shadow.
As it stands we don’t have Pantheons for any Force outside of Order/Death.
What they should have done is that we should right now have a clear understanding of each Pantheon and their composition, and have 1-2 members of each Pantheon be “The Bad Guys” while the rest are benevolent.
So while the Church of Light was Pantheon of Light Member A servants, the Scarlet Crusaders were corrupted by Pantheon Of Light Member B, etc.
Oh, so I was wrong about you. You think the best way going forward is to blame everything on the Horde and then delete the Horde as a faction. My apologies for being wrong about you.
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The Horde is the one responsible, and I want both factions deleted so we can focus on the races rather than two big factions.
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Blame the Horde then delete the Horde as a faction then delete the Alliance as a faction. It could happen, I’ve learned to never say never; thanks for clarifying.
Its the only thing that guarantees the Horde won’t commit another genocide again because there is no Horde to do it.
And it’s a vengeance that has no direct bad impact on Horde players.
You don’t think Horde leaders are accountable for standing by a war criminal? Yikes.
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I can see your point of view and have actually thought about WoW without the Horde and Alliance; replaced with single factions. I’ve also thought about rearranging factions as well.
Certainly dismantling the Horde is one way to guarantee that they commit any more atrocities. I suppose deleting single factions that commit atrocities would be the new expectation.
it solves the population issue too. This game can’t support a two faction game anymore, Alliance is a husk.
The problem with parsing is that it looks like – or becomes – cherry-picking in a discussion. Keep that in mind.
The Paladin Order didn’t die out, as we see in World of Warcraft. The paladins had their abilities, some survived, some didn’t – as we saw in Frozen Throne and now in WoW. Not sure whether WC3 mocked faith, maybe, maybe not (looking back, Blizzard loves putting subversiveness into their stories), it’s something to think about. What “buddies” would benefit from the Light not helping the people of Lorderaen? The Void? That’s the Light’s archenemy and didn’t exist in Warcraft 3. In fact, the Maw didn’t exist until Shadowlands but Hell did in Warcraft 3 (Remember Uther’s “I dearly hope there’s a special place in Hell waiting for you, Arthas.”)
People needed morals whether there’s a civilization or not, saying it’s a cookie cutter mould is at best an oversimplification, at worst a strawman. Just because you believe the book of Genesis is metaphor doesn’t make it metaphor.
You say fans project their views onto the characters and reach wrong conclusions, but you do the same. You infer Elune gave Tyrande Night Warrior powers just to connect with the Winter Queen, but that makes no sense. Elune didn’t know about Teldrassil or the loss of the Arbiter, so she didn’t know that Tyrande would go into the Maw, get from the Maw to Ardenweald and then stick around long enough to come face to face with the Winter Queen.
Ultimately, our arguments about the characters in the game are irrelevant because they’re not independent agents, but products of the writers in real-life – some of whom have agendas and don’t care about consistency in their story. The writers aren’t using the best medium and trying to write about and elaborate on concepts they clearly have no regard for.
It is not enough.
It will never be enough.
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I wouldn’t say that exactly. His enough is deleting the Horde; this is his enough. He quite literally says so a few post up.
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I empathize. I feel the same way about people trotting out bad faith arguments about how night elves are the dev favorites and are way too powerful and deserved to be destroyed, and that no night elf players will ever be satisfied with anything less than destroying the Horde utterly and always winning at all the things.
This isn’t sarcasm or whataboutism; I genuinely do empathize with you. It’s wearying when large segments of the player base treat you as stupid or wrong to love the race you love. I wish we could all admit that everyone has both good and bad things in the story, instead of making it a who-has-it-worst Olympics.
(I actually really do love the Tauren, incidentally, and think Tauren and Kaldorei should make their own faction that Worgen could decide to join or not. I also think Tauren – well, all races – should be able to be rogues. If that big metal monstrosity in Outland can sneak up on me, anyone should be able to.)
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