Or stop the Lightforged from using Vindicaar drop pods in Drustvar during any Horde Assaults in the zone.
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The information is incomplete, sure. But there are quests indicating that Elune is perfectly happy with killing the way to a certain goal, with sacrifices. There’s even a comment from one of NPCs that “in her light all truths are revealed”.
Sure, it’s possible to claim those sometimes direct interaction of the player character with her are just a PoV, but how does it fit the older stories?
Gl hf
Whatever it is it will be humiliating and infuriating (Elune, an immortal being of unfathomable wisdom presumably, is now a complete idiot, for example, that just makes a HUGE mistake- which doesn’t even make sense itself in any way) for Kaldorei fans and good for Sylvanas and the Horde. I’m getting off this train (again), soon. It’s gone off the tracks long enough.
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No, they didn´t. The “closest” thing we could perceive as such was the whole “crusader Bridenbrad” stuff, but then again, that one was basically an irl memento quest (ergo, obviously they were gonna put into western religious connotations to honor a western person, duh). The rest of the time? Absolutely nothing at all.
I mean dude, if we take what you say at face value then are we pretending the Abrahamic based “Holy Light” was SO benevolent as to let Uther (basically one of the “chosen prophets” of said religion) get tortured and send to Hell for the lols? Really?
No, WE players decided to interpret stuff in the incorrect way. No one at Blizzard ever said the Holy Light was some proxy for irl christianism / judaism / islam, WE assumed so when we saw “warriors using holy themes” and made that connection with irl crusaders (this my man is a common behaviour in human beings… reason why people sees a weird light in the night sky and scream UFO all the time. We irl humans have a perchant to see stuff that´s NOT really there, and to fabricate nonexistant connections between stuff that looks similar to other stuff).
Sorry, but last time I saw the angelic description in both the Bible AND the Tanakh are waaay different to the overrated chandeliers in WoW (the “angels” in judaism are made of FIRE, not Light, for starters.
With the exception, they did. Just like us humans have brought us to the place we are currently, the races of Azeroth literally raised up from the ground NOT thanks to Titans nor the Light nor Elune truly and remarkably carrying them by the hand. They traveled from other worlds thanks to their own actions (heck, the most “influential” God esque entity was probably Sargeras, and he limited to sweet talk people that already had the knowledge and the means to achieve what he needed); Elune didn´t magically caused the Great Sundering to stop Sargeras summoning, Malfurion did.
Oh no, I´m perfectly aware in how we nowadays practice our faith and the vision we have for God. But the characters in WoW´s narrative? The very forum posters compaining cause Elune didn´t summon herself to smother Sylvanas? I think they are the ones with NO actual clue (ergo, the devs building Siira the way they built her.)
I know, ergo why I said it was OUR fault as readers to put a label into Elune that was never truly established by the creators of the story. We did. So the burden of the “dissapointment” is NOT on Blizz this time, it´s in out own shoulders.
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Yes they did, as I previously explained and you’ve chosen to ignore as your parsing looks like cherry-picking. We might be able to add Crusader Bridenbrad to the examples I cited. I can give more examples. Fire is a combination of heat and light, and the naaru are agents and messengers of a higher power (and them going Void is reminiscent of Fallen Angels - plus angels have numerous forms besides “fire and light” or “winged human”).
When and how was Uther “tortured and sent to Hell for lols”?
You’re confusing “the races didn’t bring themselves into existence” with “self-made”. The mortal races of Azeroth either came about through either naturalist evolution, intelligent design or were uplifted native lifeforms. For example;
- Warcraft Humans are now devolved versions of Vry’kul, who were Titan constructs made fleshy by the Old Gods. Same with Dwarfs and Gnomes. As for technological development, most of what they know came form the Titans. In fact, on Azeroth guns were invented by the Titan Keeper Mimiron - the first one is the Hunter Artefact Weapon “Titanstrike”.
- Elves are trolls uplifted by Elune and who drew on the Well of Eternity.
- Orcs are Titan Creations devolved by Botani Spores of Life.
My complaint there isn’t that Elune didn’t personally kill Sylvanas, my complaint is that Elune empowered Tyrande to strike back against her attackers… only to pull back when she literally had Sylvanas by the throat. But that’s a problem with the writers of the story more than the characters in it.
Because they want justice for what the Horde and its players did in BFA.
Its very simple to understand.
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Small, surely you don’t mean killing innocent Horde citizens, genocide, losing a few faction leaders etc etc right?
I just think you need to clarify that part, since Waygs said they insistent on forcing that on others.
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You make up what you want.
What these players and I as well want is for there to be Horde accountability for the actions the Horde have collectively taken multiple times now.
You are the one making that part. The words you have referenced cannot be found on my post. Good try though.
In short making Sylvanas the 1 person responsible is not enough.
Retaking half destroyed stuff that was already mine is not enough.
When its enough I will let you know.
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Stories evolve, man. You can´t take the ARTISTIC features used in the 2nd RTS iteration of teh story and stay stuck with it, simple as that. Cause the very fact WC3 started to “retcon” those (as you admited) says it all about how “abrahamic inspired” were the Holy Light, Elune and the rest of the “God” cast.
As a matter of fact, fire is the rapid oxidation of material in an exothermic process called “combustion”. The RELEASE products resulting for the aforementioned combustion products are heat, light and other particles (irl combustion processes aren´t 100% efficient and usually several components are produced in the form of particles and gases). And you can´t have a “fire” in the normal sense (we aren´t talking here about nuclear reactions for example) if you lack one of the three key components: a fuel material, an oxidizer (usually oxygen) and the minimal temperature or “heat” to trigger the reaction.
So, nope. “Pure Light” entities with no correlation to actual heat nor particle nor much less combustion are “Fire” in a world in which actual “Fire” exist too and it´s unrelated to them.
And the Old Gods were too, and the demons were too and the Watchers were too and so on and so fort.
SO special and abrahamic, amrite? Is not like they´re merely a flavor of the same tier entities present for all the cosmical powers in WoW, no sir!!
Last time I saw in the actual religious texts, angels don´t get to magically go back to their “holy” state after falling from grace. Quite the opposite.
Not in the actual canon religious texts, in mysticism? sure.
Heck, some of those “forms” are suspiciously similar to the “God” forms of another religions present at the time like the Assyrian one.
When he got part of his soul absorbed by Satan´s magical sword and tortured in side it while his other soul portion felt it 24/7 even after reaching “brainwashing” heaven.
If that´s what you think is a fair afterlife for someone who would be basically a proxy for Moses, then I´m speechless.
And all these examples actually make them further away from Abrahamic religious connotations. Cause the abrahamic god after getting “disenchanted” with the humans for tyhem not following the cookie cutter mold he had for them, basically left them to their own devices and only intervened when bothered. He´s a “support” that grants spiritual strenght so the humans manage to fix their own screw ups by themselves, NOT a magical fix-it.
The titans and Elune and the Naaru and so on? Oh, they step in quite frequently (more similar to greek gods indeed) and in the same vein only do it to fulfill THEIR agenda, not motivated in saving their subjects.
Well, duh. Why should Elune put her “favorites” over her own sister´s wellbeing? That´s NOT how politetist Gods work, they 10 times out of 10 put their kind well above the mortals. Heck, they usually wanted to keep the mortals CONTAINED in their lesser subservient state.
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Whoa whoa whoa, I was just asking for clarity.
I agree with you; I’m in the same boat. I think it’ll reel in the “sweeping things under the rug” writing that we’ve received since Cata.
Honestly I just referenced Waygs post addressed to you, in which he says “If the loss of Teldrassil was really, truly, and honestly the mentally scarring and depressing episode that they claim it to be, then why the hell are they insistent on forcing that on other people?”
If you’re not “insistent on forcing that on other people” my apologies. I assumed you were with how he worded his post.
I’ve been preaching accountability for a very very very long time, I 100% agree with you if that is the case.
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Because its a strawman he has constructed to bring down. Ask what Wags is willing to give to right the wrong.
This is just another “Horde suffered so they shouldn’t have to pay anything.” Even NPCs because it might make the Horde player feel bad.
And how will this accountability be presented besides ALL the Horde leaders being brought in front of a firing squad?
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There’s a different between stories evolving and writers arbitrarily retconning parts of the story after its been released. I said it was downplayed in Warcraft 3, not retconned. WoW brought in the retcons and has been running roughshod ever since.
I was talking about light, which is part of fire, but thank you for explaining what is considered fire.
While I see what you’re getting at with the naaru, have you heard about the Seraphim and Cherubim? They’re not simply “winged human” or “fire and light” and they’re recounted in canonical Scripture.
These retcons, like the whole soul-splitting phenomena aren’t a problem with the characters or cosmic forces in the story, but the inconsistent writers of the story and setting.
Your idea of God described here is almost right, but still wrong; morals aren’t a “cookie cutter mold”, your understanding of redemption and salvation is off (there’s a reason Jesus chose to allow Himself on the cross) and how were we “left to our own devices”? Plus I still proved my point that the races of WoW aren’t self-made like you claimed they were/are. The Titans are similar to the Greek gods with a bit of the Norse gods thrown in, not sure about Elune but the naaru are now a combination of angels and Babylon 5’s Vorlons.
But we don’t see how using the Night Warrior power to kill Sylvanas would hurt Ardenweald or the Winter Queen. The amount Tyrande used to chase Sylvanas and pin her down at most put a furrow in the ground when they landed; nowhere near a weapon of mass destruction. At that point the only lives in danger were Tyrande’s and Sylvanas’.
Huh! LMAO
Are you genuinely asking me or do you think that all Horde leader should be brought in front a firing squad?
If it the former, I think rounding up those that participated in WoT and weeding out leadership is a good start. The latter is insane.
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Thats literally the entire Horde leadership… all the people present at WoT could argue innocence unless they were directly responsible for setting the fire and spreading it.
The people that supported Sylvanas and the Horde war AFTER WoT are now directly responsible by association with a known war criminal.
So I ask again how will you show accountability?
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There are Horde leaders that weren’t even a part of the Horde at the time of WoT, there were also leaders that did not know WoT was in the plans. You shouldn’t exaggerate to make a point, it takes away from your point. Instead of talking about what is actually your point, now we’re talking about some over exaggerated criteria that you yourself don’t even agree with.
In my opinion, acknowledging all of those involved and sentencing those that were essential commanders would be a great storyline.
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The key part is they chose to associate with Horde after wot.
Please describe the event that is supposed to show Horde accountability for Teldrassil and the 4th War that all Horde leaders were participant to.
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I would like an explanation as to why Horde leaders supported Sylvanas in all phases of WoT. I think that would be great insight and draw fans in, especially us lore driven fans. Sylvanas had her soul twisted and corrupted by Zovaal, what is her supporters excuse?
Killing off/imprisoning Horde leaders is off the table. We just lost 3, there are no more to blame and or kill. Considering this is a 2 faction game; I think a storyline at least acknowledging and explaining participation(or lack thereof) would be awesome.
Whatever you prefer. To me if they failed to properly clear up and narrow down the story to the “new vision”, or better, to stick to the original without conflicting with it, that’s then it’s not a problem of people who play the game to know the story of the game, or who buys extended universe stuff only for it to be thrown away.
gl hf
To make it work properly, such explanations IMO should be a part of the intended story. aka it should’ve been clear since 8.0.
gl hf
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Dude, WC3 saw the rise of the Scourge and the death of the Paladin (the “Holy Warriors of the Light”) order. With those Paladins having NO protection nor help from the “God” they venerated; not even spiritual support there. The FAITH was but useless in that game, when in Abrahamic religions the FAITH IS what moves mountains and makes those prophets achieve sucess regardless of the tragedy befalling them. WC3 literally mocks the faith concept with every turn.
So maybe indeed the “Holy Light” in WC3 was less akin to Yahvé and more akin to Zeus. Who has zero issues with letting down the petty mortals if it´s for his benefit or the benefit of his buddies.
I know you try to use “Light” as a visual to relate the chandeliers to the biblical description of abrahamic angels, but the thing is, it´s a failed premise. Especially when we consider those angels usually took on human form when they were sent to interact with the mortals.
The only times they had other “physical forms” were when they were dwelling in Heaven near to God. And in the case of those angels, they NEVER interact with the humans, the purpose is simply to worship God and nothing else. Those aren´t messengers in trhe scripture, ergo NOT the same purpose of the other angel cast.
They were in the Genesis, after all. There was NO civilization that needed the collective of morals to sustain it, Adam and Eve literally didn´t need no susbtenance in “Heaven on Earth”. At the end it was just a test (or more properly, a methapor to try to explain why humans irl suffer and have to work to survive. We may despise it, but we live in a reality were COMPETENCE is key for survival. And morals makes us stronger as species and society, ergo that´s why they are fundamental).
It doesn´t, but then again that wasn´t the point in the cinematic. The point was that Elune wanted to give a “solid” to her sis, nothing more and nothing less. And dead Tyrande + dead Sylvanas is NOT relevant to achieve this premise.
Elune (like any average God from a politeist system) simply wants to achieve goal A, saw something she could use to achieve it and went for it. Regardless on the actual process itself, she didn´t even stay to check if the move would work, she assumed it would and moved on carelessly (remember how Zeus got tricked by Prometheus twice? Yeah, something like that…).
Is not about collateral damage, is about Elune wanting to reconect with sis and moving the threads to achieve this, period. The Nelves and Sylvanas were nothing but the tool to achieve it.
After dwelling on it a little, I think the problem is that the devs are trying to develop a too much metaphysical and philosophical narrative in the game; and the game thanks to it´s very nature is maybe NOT the best vehicle to do this. That´s why the advance on the story is so slow, cause it´s hard to portray spiritual and psychological growth while using a “raid” to show it. Ergo, my comment about this being the very first time an expac actually tries to put our PCs under an actual monomyth narrative. This is the first time we DO travel to another real weird “magical and different world” (we are in another plane ffs, the Shadowlands aren´t just another planet, they are another COSMOLOGICAL PLANE); also the “gains” in this plane go waay further than “prevent the destruction of home for the n-esim time”, they literally could affect the very fabric of our PC existence.
At the end maybe this happened cause in their haste to make a “more complex” narrative (an actual Campbellian monomyth) the devs DID sacrifice the old formula and their execution has been sloppy and vague AF. In paper the expac has a lot of potential, but in reality executing this potential is anything but easy.
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