Blizzard feels it was unfair and the fact that I do as well has absolutely no bearing on this issue.
You know this thread isn’t about master loot.
Most normal guilds used PL.
About half of the heroic guilds used PL.
Most mythic guilds used ML, but certainly not all.
I’d be behind you if it was like 99% of mythic guilds used ML… but it wasn’t even close to that. Yes, you did have the option to use PL if you wanted to. Particularly if you did anything below mythic. Finally… if PL is sooooo in demand to the point of it being a necessity… then find all of the people who want to use PL (since according to people on these forums, they’re supposedly all over the place) and make a guild and do the content.
Source for data: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-vs-master-loot-bfa/
Sorry, but the data (or the best we have) has been done on this. The majority of players who used ML… liked it. The majority of players who used PL… liked it. That means you have two populations of players who like different things. Why remove the option?
Should’ve gone on the offensive as soon as the roast began and started calling them nerds and virgins.
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If you feel the need to hide your armory because you’re afraid people will scrutinize your credentials then you clearly know in the back of your head you don’t really have grounds to be posting on that topic.
I can confidently post in threads about the content I do, because you can look at my armory and see that I’ve done it. What you won’t see me doing is criticizing parts of the game that I don’t play, because obviously I don’t have enough information to form an opinion or criticize them.
Guilds are run by people, and some people are jerks. This is just the way of the world.
Hop over to our server and join our guild, we have true casual players, nobody is “forced” to do anything, and we have lots of fun. We have one grandma in our guild who does only pet battles. But she is fun to chat with and she also levels up other player’s pets - that’s fun for her.
We have others who push M+, but by pushing I mean +13 ish, not super elite or anything and we will also run those keys and carry guildies who can’t normally do that level so they get 10 chests. I tanked a 2 hour Siege+12 this week, lol, but we got some good chests for peeps who were more +4 range in their gear.
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It’s such a hypocrisy. You hear one moment where people make the stance that “we should never remove content” but when the convo starts up about ML then it becomes “well it was being abused by lower end guilds so let’s remove it entirely”
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“Control” is very different than “Abuse”. You use the word control with a heavy negative connotation attached to it, which is disingenuous. Back when ML was a thing generally speaking you got out of the system what you put into it. If you showed up every night, were on top of your game in terms of performance and attitude, you had a good chance of getting that titanforged socketed item, or the mount from the final boss. If you had spotty attendance, didn’t research fights, died frequently, you were probably not going to get the giga-forged loot over someone who clearly put in more effort.
This system is just…fair. I killed mythic Jaina the other day for a re-clear, not everyone in the raid has their mount yet. The game randomly assigned the mount to a player in our raid. This player happened to be a trial. He was not in the raid for the 400+ wipes required to learn the fight in the first place.
The raidleader had everyone with “raider” status /roll 100 and the trial traded the person who won the mount. This same trial isn’t being “abused” or given “nothing”. He gets his cutting edge achievement, normal loot from Jaina and other bosses, and starts working his way towards becoming a “core raider” in his own right. He just doesn’t get the mount…because there are a lot of people in front of him that have been waiting longer.
Anyways, your post proves my point exactly. You are the type of person who comes across as extremely uninformed and just…
“Ion said abuse you guys must have been abusing it”.
This isn’t an argument. If there are so many people that raid mythic and were abused as trials under the system, lets hear from them. We very very rarely hear anything of the sort. It’s all people who either:
A.) Don’t raid
or
B.) Raided back in BC or WoTLK when ML was available in pugs and they got ninja’d and so they hate it to this day even tho their experience is irrelevant to the conversation as ML was not usable in pugs in Legion.
Did every guild have a completely fair and just loot council? No, and to be honest that depends on your perspective. When humans try to quantify and apply value or weight to someone’s “attitude” or “performance” there is always room for error, and always room for someone to get hurt.
If you were so averse to this potential negative experience, you had the choice to raid in a guild that used personal loot. They existed, even in mythic…
Instead, Blizzard removed any chance of any player having this negative experience, but also butchered any chance of a player having a positive experience, where that socketed titanforged item dropped and you were awarded with it because the guild noticed the hard work you had been putting in. Being validated, rewarded, and most importantly, appreciated by your friends and peers was something that truly made raiding special, and Blizzard ham handedly decided that it shouldn’t even be a CHOICE.
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Same, here on the forum we’ve all had experience in world first guilds.
Well put. I’ve always brought up the point that crappy guilds will still be crappy guilds even without ML as well. There are other ways to “abuse” your raid members. I think the best example, which is actually worse than ML abuse, is simply that of raid spots and nepotism.
You think losing an item is bad? How about spending 2-3 months on progress only to get side-lined at the last boss cause the “super great friend of the RL from last expac/tier” shows up and finds himself a spot for end-boss progression over you… (this is with the assumption that you’re performing more than adequately and the boss doesn’t have some crazy 4 warlock requirement (g’huun)… and even if the boss did have such a requirement, I’d expect the raid leads to sit down with you and fully explain what’s going on)
Crappy guilds are crappy… Period. If loot abuse is/was actually occurring… leave.
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I haven’t had experience in a world first guild - tell me what it is like to be in method. Do they let people like you even join their ‘fun’ nights ?
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I am curious as to what you were posting about that trigger this kind of response.
I am on the side that if you do not participate on the activity, you should not be making suggestion or assumptions. For instance, Master Loot and some people who have never raided given their opinion as if it mattered.
Also, this guild just seems toxic and this seems fake.
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Now I could be reading the data wrong but it appears that by that pie chart, if you did want to raid Mythic and you wanted a personal loot guild, it was going to be very hard. The pie chart doesn’t represent 99%, but it does appear close and there is a pretty big chunk of that that appears unhappy with the system. My guess is that many guilds were in fact corrupt and liked to hoard loot/play favorites.
And again this is just throwing those people who are struggling to find a home to the wolves, forcing folks who aren’t capable or ready to lead, to lead. Speaking from personal experience, some folks really shouldn’t be trying to make and lead guilds.
And even this is a sucky situation. Not everyone has the means to simply leave and uproot themselves to a new server/faction/guild.
If my guild went belly-up today and I was forced to find a new home, I wouldn’t be able to because I simply don’t have the cash to do so. The guild from Garrosh that just advertised in this thread seems like a perfect fit, but I wouldn’t be able to go over there if I wanted to at this moment because 25 bucks is a huge deal. Some people are poor.
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Okay. But how do you perform in a raid that only has 1/2 of the group that’s geared very well?
Probably a little slower than a non-corrupt master loot guild, but personal loot has the advantage of being fair and unbiased. I trust Lady Luck over any living human, to be honest.
There’s also the fact that on that data chart, a lot of more casual Heroic guilds also used master loot, so even if you just wanted to find a personal loot heroic guild it was going to be a coin flip nonetheless. Personally I’m happy I no longer have to ask about that before joining a guild. I have been in heroic guilds that were corrupt, played favorites, and hoarded loot. I did end up leaving them but that doesn’t make it any less of a pain in the butt, having to find a new guild and shell out even more money for transfers.
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Because it matters far less than Mythic. Which there is no “probably a little slower” when it comes to loot abuse in Mythic. It ends up with people not being able to perform the DPS/HPS while also getting damn near 1 shot by HP nuking mechanics. So for teams that get Cutting Edge, this is a non issue.
This also didn’t boost the number of players participating in Mythic because of the “evil” guilds doing their dastardly deeds against trials. So all this change did was inconvenience serious Mythic raiders for a lie they weren’t even a part of.
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I don’t think that was the goal, but we don’t have the actual data. Personally I believe it was actually more aimed at the heroic guilds where such corruption was far more rampant. I do know that serious mythic CE guilds couldn’t afford that sort of subversion for the most part (though some certainly did I would wager they weren’t the majority).
So then the change should have been for Heroic. Not for Mythic guilds. I hate this idea that we have to drag everyone down, including people that knew what they were doing, because players on lower difficulties wanted to abuse it. That wasn’t our fault.
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It does suck for the genuinely good folks who didn’t abuse it. Sadly it happens a lot in life; the bad ruin things for the good.
For the record I did support the “80% rule” that was in place. I would have probably increased that to 95% if anything. If even one trial/non-guildy joined a raid they should have a shot at loot. Once that person was initiated though they agree to the rules a guild sets in place.
I would’ve moved it to 100%. This change is part of the reason I stopped raiding all together. Can’t even act like a team anymore. It’s disgusting.
I disagree only because I remember joining a pug HFC to help a friend back in the day, only to have the raid leader ninja all of Archimonde’s loot at the end, without any recourse or justice done.
Pugs should all be PL. Everything but non-100% guild groups should be PL.
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