Elf fans. Do you still want High Elves?

He wasn’t, though. He was a backwater marshal, field-raised as an emergency because leadership was dropping like flies and because he was able to push himself up through nepotism (in particular, the fact that Alliance forces fleeing the Scourge pushed up through his father’s land bordering Quel’thalas). He led only that particular remnant of the Alliance forces. He became Grand Marshall only because emergency procedure demanded there be at least one; prior, he was just a Baron’s man-child with only a mediocre career as a literally entitled knight, seething over his town and family being massacred because Alliance forces had been diverted to save Quel’thalas.

And if you’re going to assume that all Blood Elves are going to be okay with Horde veterans of the Second War who attempted to wipe out Quel’thalas and would be fine with the Forsaken’s use of plague weapons upon collateral targets, etc., all because they’re not the Amani Trolls or the Scourge specifically, then do you really think they’d be unable to tell the difference between an single off-the-goop marshal and the entire Alliance? That’d be like calling every member of the Horde a war-criminal for what Garrosh did to Theramore with relatively little support or shared information.

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I like how you ignored everything I wrote in your desperate rush to respond.

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A quick correction:

I technically misspoke earlier in referring to Garithos’ command as one over an Alliance army. We think of it that way because the Army of Lordaeron had elvish and dwarven troops among them in-game (based on WC2 and 3/4s of the original member races in WoW).

According to lore, though, that wasn’t so much the case. Garithos did not actually control an Alliance army (i.e., one in any way co-directed by the Alliance heads of state), per se, but merely a part of the Army of Lordaeron (a single human city-state). Kaelthas bound his forces to that army in memory of the old alliances they’d had (with Arathor, with the Alliance), but he was technically serving under just the Army of Lordaeron.

However, that was the particular army, rather than technically the Alliance, to whom Kael’s forces gave their allegiance, as it was the only group that actually had forces and supplies near Quel’thalas when they were needed. Remember, there’s a reason the WC3 Campaign calls the faction Human, not Alliance. It’s the story of Lordaeron, the northernmost human nation, even if it carries over iconic mixed-composition forces from WC2.

Neither Varion or the Stormwind leadership nor Magni or his councilors at Ironforge would have heard a damn thing about what Garithos was doing in time to make their own commanders intervene. News, like those forces, would take months to travel except by gryphon, in which case it’d still take over a week. They can only send their troops and hope for the best. And what Garithos was doing would only have been at all visible to those troops for less than three days.

So no, a single citystate’s military head doing something horrible does not mean that Ironforge and Stormwind leadership were necessarily complicit in that. They’d have no way of giving orders beyond sending their troops and commanders over.

You may as well, again, accuse every member of the Horde of being complicit in the mana-bombing of Theramore. Were they aware of Garrosh’s plan? Very few. But hey, let’s assume that all related factions, even those without any avenues of communication or oversight, are complicit, right?

The Alliance, which was a council of heads of state between Stormwind, Khaz Modan (Ironforge), and only tenuously Lordaeron even before its head of state was murdered and no one was able to replace him, had no say over what happened to the Quel’dorei. They did not put Garithos in charge. The only thing that put Garithos in charge was every other officer in the eastern region having been killed as the Scourge pushed towards Quel’thalas.

Garithos, being only aligned with Lordaeron (not Stromgarde, not Stormwind, and certainly not the broader Alliance) could only be ordered about by the Alliance if the compact between Terenas, Varian, and Magni could force Terenas to do so. Terenas couldn’t, though, because he was dead. Meanwhile Varian and Magni were on the southern continent. Alliance in this case is a bit of a misnomer, more a vague idea of historical reference than technically a chain of command, so no, Garithos’s actions are not a sign of approval from Alliance leadership higher up.

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Your post quotes things that hadn’t yet been said at the time of your post, instead having clearly been edited in at least an hour later, but somehow responding only to what was written at the time is me being in a “desparate rush to respond”.

Was I supposed to give you more than the single hour’s time to add over half your posts’ contents in edit?

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Had no idea what Garrosh was up to.

  1. Sarah Pine explaining Aethas’s innocence

Ahhh, Dave’s actually talking about this publicly! Me and Mike Sacco asked him about it on his facebook back when 5.1 was current, and he said there was supposed to be an extra scene that bugged out and didn’t show up in the actual game. Horde-side, when you were stealing the Bell from Darnassus, Aethas was supposed to find your portal, follow you in and go “what are you doing? You can’t use Kirin Tor resources for the war effort.” and the orc you’re with gets nose to nose with him and says “You’d better decide where you’re loyalties lie, ELF.” And Aethas slinks back through the portal to Dalaran saying he saw nothing. So yeah, Aethas knew about the bell—but by accident. Fanlyr was acting on his own, and seemed to have no intention of telling him about it. We never said anything because Dave thought that the rampant speculation re: Aethas’ loyalties was great to watch and asked us to be quiet about it. It wasn’t Blizzard’s intention for that to be a mystery, it just happened that way.

Right, and that event on the IoT was supposed to be an obvious reference to what the player would have already known, had the bugged event actually been in the game—i.e. that Aethas HAD found out about the Bell, so he didn’t know “nothing”. It wasn’t supposed to put his loyalties into question; it was supposed to be a reaffirmation of what we already knew—that he had turned a blind eye. The difference is that Jaina is essentially accusing Aethas of being an active participant in the deception, which he wasn’t. Aethas was, truly, a Kirin Tor loyal. Until he stumbled upon what Fanlyr (and us, the players, lets be honest) were up to. The problem with finding out in such a clumsy way is that, if he had gone straight to Jaina and told her what was going on, Garrosh would have known EXACTLY who spilled the beans, which would have likely put a lot of blood elf lives in immediate danger, because there’s no way Garrosh would have let that go. And if Aethas said nothing? Well, that’s the option he chose and we saw how that panned out. Aethas basically blundered into a situation in which he could either bring down Garrosh’s wrath on the blood elves, or Jaina’s. He gambled with Jania’s. He, and the blood elves as a whole, would have lost either way.

I seriously loved learning that because it makes it so clear that Aethas was just in way, way over his head. I’m really, really sad that none of that has been followed up on in canon lore (yet?) because there’s such rich potential in it. Honestly, I was kind of desperate for a scene in which Lor’themar learned that Aethas DID actually know about the bell and blew his freakin top over it; considering that Lor’themar, at least, seemed to genuinely believe Aethas was innocent. And, honestly, he was kind of innocent. Kind of. He got fleeced, hardcore. Poor Aethas indeed…

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What Garithos did should be the start of one of those infamous fantasy grudges between two races.

He was going to extinguish the blood elf royal family.

However I don’t think the writers are capable of writing things like that, it seems they want us all to hold hands on Azeroth.

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If they didn’t drive this Alliance side would die out because no one would want to play the super boring over the top Human centric side of things, it’s legit been shown with how many people play Horde vs how many people play Alliance and as a strong Horde player I can’t blame others for wanting to play the better faction.

Actually the whole reason they have been chipping away at the faction barrier and adding stuff like cross faction playing and soon cross faction guilds is so that the people that still play Alliance will actually be able to play still but realistically they should just tell them to play Horde like the rest of us.

I really wish Bliz did more short stories to flesh things out.

Especially incidents like the Purge with multiple perspectives, things like glitches that may or may not exist, lots of character motivations that aren’t really explored, and some serious limitations to what gets portrayed in game (technical, time, whatever).

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Well with this and the jaina thing, sounds like they liked the glitches and the way they changed the story. Jaina being more aggressive, and adding more uncertainty with Aethas. So dunno if they’d go and put out short stories that would clear things like that up.

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Well, they did fix Jaina’s excess aggro years later.

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The entirety of this supposition is that Lordaeron wasn’t a real member of the alliance is quite frankly laughable when taken into the proper context of WC1 and 2; Effectively stormwind lost the first war against the orcs and it’s people were forced to flee and beg for help from the Other major powers in the eastern kingdoms which would have included:

  • Kul Tiras
  • Stromgarde
  • Gilneas
  • Dalaran
  • Alterac
  • Lordaeron

Within the context of that alliance, Lordaeron was effectively it’s head since it was the oldest and most well established human nation while also having arguably the strongest military overall (Stromgarde may have had a stronger military tradition but it doesn’t appear that they could match the numbers or economy of Lordaeron). Interestngly, the elves (who were described as being aloof WRT human affairs) and the dwarves would only join the alliance as the war progressed due to the direct threat that was posed by horde forces when they ere on their doorstep.

In light of this and with the complete collapse of the northern kingdoms (aside from gilneas who were… odd as members of the alliance and Kul tiras who weren’t directly connected to the mainland) All of the alliances forces in theatre would have concentrated under the control of Garithos who was effectively the head of the Alliances standing armies in theatre (such as they were).

As such, we can only conclude one to three possibilities about this:

  1. Varian and Magni somehow didn’t know that the majority of the alliance was getting obliterated by the undead to the point where their nations effectively ceased to exist.
  2. They knew, they just didn’t care enough to do anything about it.
  3. They legitimately thought Garithos was doing a good job.

I leave it up to you to decide which of these three makes the most sense.

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It’s very little to do with story.

It’s a matter of perception of where the end content can be done, originally caused due to a racial ability being OP and players jumping on the belief that they had to play Horde to remain competitive.

It’s continued because people kept buying into it and now there isn’t enough population of end game players Alliance side.

Unfortunately there’s not a lot of options for blizzard to rectify that primarily because it’s not based on anything they do anymore, it’s just a schema of players in wow now.

A feedback loop more or less.

Honestly allowing cross faction play is by far the best way they could have chosen to fix it. (though they really need to pick up the pace of development there…)

Omg so much this!

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I find this hard to believe I’ve done storylines on both sides and even when they are actually different Alliance side just blows it always comes back to the Human centric thing with is just gross when that’s all it is honestly.

I also don’t believe this because Alliance has had the better and more OP racials for awhile now in most cases and people don’t wanna play that side and again like I said in my other side who can blame them, I even this topic is basically about Blood Elf vs Void Elf and it’s like why would anyone want to play the bargain bin version when you can play the real version on the better faction it literally speaks for itself.

This to me is literally a bandaid fix but I don’t care either way since I only play with friends so regardless what they are playing if we want to play together we will but I’d much rather them just roll everything into Horde since most of the games population plays that side anyway including myself.

Oh don’t get me wrong, Alliance stories do need work especially recently.

But it’s not the cause of the disparity in faction populations.

OP racials at this point couldn’t save it either. Also that perception is very strong now, which is why I called it a schema. It’s strong enough that I regularly have people argue with me about the power of Alliance racials compared to Horde ones and honestly it’s remarkable the leaps of logic people use to claim our racials are bad and Horde is good overall when Alliance pretty clearly has an advantage.

Eh, it’s got a few drawbacks here and there but it’s by far the best option at their disposal.

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I’m old enough to remember the days before late Cata/MOP when the Horde was the teeny tiny population.

It wasn’t a waste of time to support the Horde then, and it’s not a waste of time to support the Alliance now.

Especially since the situation is reversed on the European servers.

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I agree. Wow is so well known for the Alliance and Horde. It’s best for the health of the game to try to fix the disparity rather than try to remove factions as a story point.

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My whole point is if people were actually switching for racials or to have the best they would of switched back to Alliance but they didn’t, I mean I have heard so many times how this or that would help Alliance and it hasn’t, again the whole elf thing and being copy/pastes of us just worse version hasn’t and now you can pretend to be blonde, fair skinned with blue eyes and it’s like okay so people don’t actually want to play Alliance it’s just how it is.

I’m all for factions but since Horde side is mainly saving Alliance side it should just be rolled into us, that way since we are basically forced into playing together they will have to play what the rest of us do, that’s my view on it and I say that as someone that has 5 Alliance characters but I’d prefer them to be Horde anyway so.

I feel like the cross faction stuff is going to be the biggest boon to faction balance than just about any other proposed solution. Since so much of imbalance seems to revolve around availability of group options, opening this stuff will help. And if we start seeing the RWF groups pushing mixed faction runs to min max, that’ll encourage it even more, and with the strong alliance racials, that seems pretty likely.

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Honestly, I think it’s probably the most reasonable solution.

I play both sides pretty extensively, so I’d get salty if the answer was to try to prop up the downstream one. I remember the days of “roll a troll to raid” and while I HAD A TROLL, it’s the principle of the thing. And, what with the different regions and to some extent, different local realms, there’s no bandaid that works for every ecosystem of players (including doing nothing).

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This and the expansion of classes.

Min/maxxers gonna min max and opening up some of the remaining classes to some of the races is going to get wild.

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