I have to agree with this post. Didn’t use to be this way, I am tired of the rushing, I ran old content solo, and man missed out on the art and such inside. All because zerging, I used to main a lock now I do not use any caster. When in pugs people used to talk, divide up the loots, people were more civil. The game has lost some meaning
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You realize that using weakauras to help understand your class can be a part of enjoying the class right? Or is your idea of enjoyment just singing lalalala out loud and pressing random buttons? Why is this the dichotomy you have chosen?
If you either choose to play whimsically with no addon’s or you decide to use weakauras, they are both decisions of preference so whether someone plays like you or plays with weakauras both of those people can enjoy those things… Neither of these options inherently remove “enjoyment”…
They also aren’t necessary to “keep up”… There are people at the highest end of content who don’t use addons. I will admit, they are wizards for playing that well without addon’s aid but its not impossible. This, I feel is you simply being angry that people play the game differently than you think they should and things like weakauras escalate that and it further angers you… Irrationally so…
As for the point about some addon’s being ToS and Blizzard just letting them slide, there are several historical events in the long history of this game that disprove that where blizz removed the ability to make or use certain addons and banned entire guilds for using them that you can easily google. Just because blizzard isn’t immediately doing something about it doesn’t mean it wont or doesn’t happen. This is a constant effort.
So in retail, all classes and specs have several situational proc abilities that signal other abilities to be used under certain circumstances, dynamic rotations, absorbs, CC’s, soft, and hard like knockups, knockbacks, silences, stuns or poly’s, heals, cleanses, internal buffs and a host of talents that can be swapped for situational uses… Most of these are very VERY largely aided by addon’s to be played efficiently at high end content… precisely… because… they aren’t thoughtless and automated…
If were talking about complexity and automation or thoughtlessness… Retail is factually the farthest thing from being boring by those standards…
Take mage for example.
Compare the rotation of a modern fire mage to literally any rotation of mage in previous iterations of the game… Its not even remotely in the same universe.
Were talking about tracking multiple proc’s, counting stacks to be used in tandem with specific cooldowns on a rotation, while positioning yourself among all of the hectic mechanics of retail and keeping yourself alive with multiple different defensives and mitigation mechanics… Some of which are to be used in consideration of the current status of your party which is another thing to track… Its the furthest thing from thoughtless or boring. Some classes like Evokers even have abilities to intervene and reposition other players to save them from mechanics… How is that thoughtless or boring? With or without addons?
Meanwhile, in non retail versions of the game… standing in the same spot for 3 mins straight… Frostbolt… Frostbolt… Frostbolt… Oh, I pulled threat… Ice block… Frost bolt… Frostbolt… Frostbolt… Hmm… Mobs are moving a bit close with the tank… Better cone of cold… Frostbolt… Frostbolt… ZZzzzzzzz…
Like… My dude… You can’t be this intentionally obtuse?
Then go play the numerous classic versions of the game… It’s literally designed for you rose tinted nostalgia-addicts… I also find it amusing how you only choose to remember the good memories and not the equal amount of terrible ones… Not to mention, I have made plenty of friends pugging and have had a blast clearing content with pugs, this still happens and you simply choose to ignore it because you are bitter about the game being different.
Despite things being faster now than before… There is no “aversion” to CC in retail. There is more CC then there has ever been in this version of the game… If you are talking about Pre-pull HARD CC like polymorphing a healer NPC or something… Im sorry but that isn’t complex at all and never required “planning”… Pointing at the caster mob with the moon on its head and sheeping it isn’t some monumental task… and it doesn’t require a drawing board… Neither does rogue sapping, hunter trapping, or banishing a demon… Once again, nostalgia and rose tinted goggles kicking in…
In retail? Are you nuts? As opposed to what…? Standing still casting one ability repeatedly on a boss that has a single mechanic every 45 seconds like 80% of old world content? In the current iteration of retail we have…
constant cleansing of multiple debuffs
Mobs that have unique mechanics tied to the boss fight
Mobs that CC you
Mobs that Knockup or knockback
AoE mechanics
Kick style Interrupts
CC only interrupts
Frontals
Unique enviromental mechanics
Non mob related mechanics, such as interacting with tools in the environment to progress a boss fight, like Fyrakk seeds or the candle mechanic in the new TWW dungeon, or jumping over things, or needing to do specific manoeuvres with your character
solving puzzles mid fight
Things like keeping NPC’s alive with your abilities to progress a fight
Multiple phases with new positioning, mechanics and environments MID FIGHT
Sometimes EVERYTHING LISTED ABOVE is all in the same fight at once.
This is the only thing you have said that I can agree at all. Yes, the game is designed this way now and because of things like heavy timegating and the culture of “seasons” things move fast and people don’t want to waste time. It is what it is.
Honestly, I think your delusional or lost in the past on most of what you have said but to each his own… Enjoy your delves…
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And dungeons were once the best part about WoW. So sad.
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Ok so what do we have here: you are a very slow pacer, and you enjoy the game like that.
So what you do: you project the same towards the others.
“If I can’t enjoy the game being run this fast, others don’t either!”
This is wrong in many levels. Different people enjoy things differently. Your enjoyment isn’t better than mine, so don’t put yourself above me.
“I don’t like using weak auras and doing decent rotation”
So you are blaming people for having their enjoyment and not having the same as yours… is this it?
“Why don’t you SHEEP THE MOB? Why don’t you let my mob sheeped! Stop breaking the sheep!”
Here is a fact: we have been playing without using CC on pulls for longer than we did use it. So, again you’re projecting your preferences and calling that others don’t enjoy the game because they don’t do it the same way you do.
OK so this is from where it is coming from.
A level 51 classic character with 3 posts that basically don’t even play The War Within or didn’t play Dragonflight… I doubt even played Legion at all.
It was not because the content was DATED.
It is because it is the most effective and FUN way to play.
No one wanted to spend 4 hours in stratholme doing all the possibler CCs for all the “most safe” pulls. AoE and cleaving is much more fun. Big numbers in the screen.
The same happened with even the most leveling enthusiasts for Vanilla when classic was released. They all rushed to 60 because they wanted to go enjoy the endgame.
Dungeons are meant to farm, that is why you can repeat them time and time again, many times a day.
Welcome to World of Warcraft, where your memory fails because you were a mediocre player back in WoTLK and Cataclysm and you couldn’t be better in Classic and remained mediocre.
You know how boring and time consuming dungeons are? And by time consuming I mean running them over and over again to get the piece of gear you want but RNG just says ‘nah’.
As for normals, if they didn’t make the quests give you a dirt amount of xp, people would actually do those instead. Fastest way to level is to spam dungeons. Lots of ways Blizzard can improve things but I bet all they are going to do is reduce the amount of xp you get from dungeons and go ‘look guys, we fixed it’ when just making things worse.
No one wants to spend more than 15 minutes in a dungeon. They want to get in, gtfo. The first time through solo with quest lore is great. We don’t need to do it again.
I don’t mind speed running a dungeon but a lot of these tanks cant hold agro and/or don’t know how to group up the mobs for dps to aoe them down properly. It is so bad atm.
WoW classes… complex? Lol
I’d pay to see you play final fantasy, and especially black mage.
Yeah i talk all the time in dungeons. Just because other people are anti social doesn’t mean you need to be.
There’s zero reason wow can’t be as talkative, friendly, and helpful as FF14s community. Be the change you want to see IMO
The issue is that “gogogo” is the new standard and it ruined WoW in an irreparable way. That’s why we have delves and AI-bots to assist everyone, who does not want to engage with this content anymore.
What people always forget: They wouldn’t invent these things if the numbers weren’t down. You have to blame both the community and the developers for adding this Diablo-like system into the game.
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Your post deserves more upvotes/likes. OP is either lying, an idiot, or both.
Most people i run into literally rage about the new content because it’s so much more mechanically unique compared to old stuff.
They pine for fights that might as well be patchwerk.
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I agree with you. My husband and i were just talking about various game design and class design aspects that were very Diablo in tone.
Still though, even in FF groups do wall to wall pulls quite often. They also go fast.
People are still by and large nice, polite, and helpful.
I’m sure it’s not just a culture thing, but also just a Moderation thing. I just think WoW could be like that too if Blizzard and the players really wanted it.
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Dungeons have been this way for a long while now, which won’t change. Player driven created it and so it will remain.
You really don’t remember WotLK dungeons then.
We didn’t use CC and ran through them as fast as possible.
That is why everyone was upset when they redesigned dungeons for Cata to force people to use boring unfun brainless CC again. And it was brainless cause it was the same thing every pull. Same mobs get cc’ed and killed in the same exact order every pull.
Really though, why should trash be able to wipe a party of 5 badasses? That don’t make much sense.
And why would you advocate for making bosses way harder for people with terrible reflexes? Sure for people with good reflexes no telegraphing until 1 second from party wipe might be doable but for people with bad reflexes? Impossible.
I do however agree that the dungeons just are not fun as groups charge through them at break neck speeds using convoluted routes so you never have time to smell the roses or look at the ceiling.
And when you contemplate having to repeat the same instance 30+ times you can understand why people rush through them.
The platonic ideal of going pack by pack, CCing monsters that need to be CC’d, planning to use CC before the pull is not a reality anymore. As you said,
Because it’s just the fastest way to do things. People were worse at the game 20 years ago than they are now. The baseline has increased. Even an average player now would be godlike back then.
That’s just game theory. That’s not really Blizzard’s doing. That’s because given enough time, players will optimize the fun out of a game.
However, this expansion, a lot of mobs in dungeons have knockbacks and fears and other group disruption. M0 and M+ will be slightly more nuanced.
<3 Thanks.
Correct! That’s why I made this thread :).
Do you remember how many people were angry about how highly tuned Cata dungeons were? How much CC had to be used? How much harder they were than in Wrath and how Blizz was forced to tune them down because people just couldn’t take it? I do. I don’t want to go back to dungeons that wipe casuals for missing a CC, some of which were death is nearly a given at least once.
The problem is not tuning. It won’t be solved by tuning things harder. The problem is the culture of Mythic+ try-hards that Blizz has fostered by making that a game-mode and specifically a race game-mode. Those people leave those and go into regular dungeons and then carry the same mentality. Unless you make regular dungeons as punishing as mythic+ you’re not going to slow those people down. The only way to change it is to change the culture and that means removing mythic+ or gutting it so even fewer players ever use it because they have other paths for gearing.
But devs love things like Mythic+ on multiple levels, on one level people like Ion were members of a guild called Elitist Jerks which says what you need to know about their mentality (git gud) and on another level you have the fact that mythic+ allows recycling of content. There’s not a game developer alive who doesn’t love the idea of less work by re-using existing assets and there’s not a manager or executive of a game company alive who doesn’t love the sound of cost savings by re-using things you already have meaning less work and less money spent. So I doubt it’s going anywhere without a massive player revolt against it.
So you’re putting people who have been trained on this mentality of every second counts, of chain-pull, of race-race-race-race and putting them in groups where they can not only do that but do so without the punishing mythic+ mechanics. And your solution is to somehow punish these people into slowing down. And I’m telling you that you can’t do that, all you’ll achieve is driving away players who can’t stand mythic+ from doing any dungeons because they’ll now be miserably hard which still won’t deter mythic+ mentality players from pushing through such dungeons as fast as they can.
These have nothing to do with how fast or slow dungeons are. Blizzard decided they wanted to save costs on payroll, and moved moderation into the hands of its players.
The problem is reporting and ignoring doesn’t work when you have to do it for the 20th time. Many players will simply quit at that point.
It was fun because you had to be weak first. You had to cc mobs, and use target priorities. You needed to be careful not to pull extra packs because it would surely mean death. Then over time you would eventually be able to ignore cc, and spam aoe to kill packs. You could pull 2 or even 3 packs at a time. It was fun to overcome them, not just go fast for the sake of going fast.
I understand that a lot of people doing dungeons are just looking to gear up and get their weekly runs in quickly and that’s valid, but at the same time one does wonder what the point of all the art, unique bosses, voice lines, etc if it’s all going to get rounded up and blasted down like a pack of Elwynn murlocs 95%+ of the time. Makes me wonder if normal/heroic dungeons belong on the same gear track as M+ and raiding.