No you didn’t. It was the first mmo that you could solo to 60. That was the appeal.
Again no.
Starting to doubt here cause if you’re putting things in their proper context how is it hard? Shoot I didnt raid in EQ and I didnt think Vanilla was hard. Even on this guy who I played early vanilla, when warriors weren’t as good as 1.12.
So did you level in 1.12? Cause that’s how it was. To add here stop watching streamers who min max and are in better gear than you will have at 30 and equating it to what the gameplay will be like. It won’t be like that for you. Not saying it will be hard cause vanilla wasn’t hard to begin with.
You didn’t have to group in vanilla. Like seriously you didn’t I solo’d so many elite quests on this guy. Wetlands elite quests, Badlands elite quests, and then some. AS A WARRIOR.
Also people in gear that is better than most 30’s will have until they already have a main feeding them gear.
Its laughable that people are watching these streamers and getting upset at the difficulty. How many warriors at vanilla launch had WW weapon of any kind at 30? I worked hard for mine and got lucky with a paladin helping me kill cyclonius or w/e so I could get it at ~34 (not sure i was 34 but close).
I said I am comparing it to today and purposefully NOT to EQ. How is what I am saying difficult to understand? EQ was a completely different game and a 1000 times more difficult. The appeal of WoW though was the fact that it was hard enough to feel rewarding when you succeded. That is an essential thing to have in this type of game.
Let me put it more simply perhaps. The reason WoW was a success was because it was hard enough. 1.12 classes in 1.1 balanced content I assert is not hard enough.
Fine, yes you could solo to 60, though you had to already know what you were doing and skip a lot of things. Even at that on anything but Hunter or Lock (and mage at some point) it was not an optimal way to play. If you were actually experiencing the content you had to group.
I feel like we might be speaking different languages. Yes, you could get through the game without ever using CC (though that would be quite the challenge) by picking your battles with superior knowledge of all the right areas, etc. But that was not the way most people played. For regular content experience, you had to group or you would die. Take the murlocks for example. That area is fraught with impending doom, and that’s only at like level 8ish. There are many areas of the game like that, where unless you purposefully skip those parts you really should be grouping. If you want to do dungeons there are many pulls that require CC (or did at the time).
I feel like you are talking about what is possible, and I am talking about what happened for the vast majority of people the first time through.
Of course, cause if you’re actually experiencing the content it would include dungeons. So this will be the same in classic.
I leveled this guy pretty much solo outside of actual group content (read:dungeons). Yes I died at times, but I didn’t ever have CC so its expected. Saying you had to means you have no option. Truth is you didn’t have to. It just made it easier which isn’t anything new. Grouping makes everything easier even current WoW which is already easier.
So even with the change making it easy, classic will still be harder than anything on the market today (almost at least). In 2004 it imo isn’t harder than anything today anyways (ESO, at least at launch was harder than WoW 2004). Also why compare a 2004 game to today’s games anyways you should compare it to games then. Which you did and you said it was 1000 times easier.
There is definitely a disconnect in communication here. What I am saying with regard to Vanilla difficulty is my assertion on what made it successful. If a thing isn’t difficult enough there will be no feeling of reward at succeeding at it. If you don’t have to work hard at something and if there is no chance at failure it will hold no lasting value for you, no matter what it is. That’s just human nature. It is our investment in things that give it intrinsic value. It is when we can fail that we feel importance and remember our success. You mentioned soloing elite mobs in Wetlands and Badlands. You obviously remember specific battles. How many battles do you remember in WoW since then? I bet you remember those because they were hard. I bet you remember them because you thought you might fail, and yet you tried it anyways. You succeeded in the face of failure, and your reward was a life long remembrance of a hard won battle.
So let me try to say this again… A thing has to be hard enough. In other words, there is a threshold of difficulty below which we will have insufficient investment, and insufficient risk of failure for it to retain any intrinsic value if we succeed. Contrarily that same threshold on the other side does support a lasting intrinsic value. WoW Classic, the one that we had that encouraged grouping at all levels because it was hard enough, and the one that encouraged using CC in dungeons because it was hard enough was above that threshold to instill a lasting intrinsic reward.
It is because it was hard enough that people have been pushing for its return, and is the only reason we are getting it back. Therefore, if it fails to meet that threshold, which I assert is a legitimate concern given that classes were substantially more powerful in 1.12 vs. the 1.1 balancing, the game will fail to capture that intrinsic reward that is necessary for the longevity of the game.
What I am saying is it will be fine. You are watching videos of min maxers with more gear than anyone will have at level 30 and complaining about difficulty. You think they’d be doing that in lvl 30 greens with a sparse blue here and there?
Notice how I made this point in other comments and you ignored it. Even mentioned that no warrior without a main feeding him is getting WW axe at 30. Also mentioned when this guy got his roughly cause I dont remember exact level just how hard I worked and lucky I got help with the elite kill.
You think the average player will do what the streamers are doing? You talk about the average person and experience, but are basing it off not average players. The average player will have more than enough difficulty. Sure you may not, I won’t and any seasoned wow vet won’t.
I even commented in this thread earlier that we shouldn’t buff content for this reason. There will still be new players playing classic. There will still be people with zero experience jumping in. If we buff content to “make it closer to how it was” with the mindset of the season vets (cause that’s what they’d be doing). The people who are new and fresh won’t get that vanilla feel that you are talking about.
In short, the dungeons will be “hard enough” and require CC for the average group, probably even groups full of seasoned vets. The vanilla experience will be intact as far as difficulty goes.
So is your concern the game? or your own personal enjoyment of the game?
The more legitimate concern should be population drop off and dead servers. Cause that happened to vanilla realms even though population rose steadily throughout the expansion.
That is not why I am complaining. I’m not actually “complaining” at all. I am instead concerned. I am also fairly certain you are not reading my posts. I will likely not continue if your responses keep suggesting that that is the case.
I didn’t ignore it, because that is not my main concern.
Let me try this one last time.
Bolded for emphasis. This is why I am concerned. I am also concered, as I have stated at other times, because the by far most successful pserver that also had 1.12 balancing had to increase mob hps and damage by 30% over 1.1 balancing to get the risk vs. reward above that threshold (maybe). It is at least a valid concern even if it is not yet proven. I would much rather err on the side of “too difficult” than “too easy” to meet that threshold, otherwise it will not “be fine.”
Again you think its a legitimate concern. Where are you basing this on?
I don’t think its a legitimate concern. I don’t think buffing the mobs/dungeons will be beneficial. Plenty of people leveled in 1.12 and nobody complained the game was too easy then. If the games now are easier than even 1.12 talents with 1.1 content I don’t think anyone but seasoned vets and pserver players will complain.
So please tell me why this is a concern if not from the streamers? Especially if the stress test captured the magic.
I see where you’re basing it on… pservers… ok I rest my case.
Its laughable that people are watching these streamers and getting upset at the difficulty. How many warriors at vanilla launch had WW weapon of any kind at 30? I worked hard for mine and got lucky with a paladin helping me kill cyclonius or w/e so I could get it at ~34 (not sure i was 34 but close).
As they kill SM armory and SM cath as level 30’s with not a single death? Yes, they have good gear which definitely helps speed things up, especially when you’re fighting same level (i.e., something you can hit). But enemy mobs are also hitting like wet noodles which is allowing groups to sustain, even down 10 levels.
How is this “the post we are in?” This post has absolutely nothing to do with a stream. Maybe it has been mentioned, but not in the OP, and certainly is nothing I spoke about in anything but a passing comment. I have stated several times why I am concerned.
It is the existence and experiences of Nostalrius that are the entire reason we are here. It is absolutely relevant to include those experiences. BUT, only as a data point. I certainly am not “resting my case” on it. My case has been clearly stated, and has everything to do with human nature, necessary risk vs. reward levels, and the class power increases vs. 1.1 content balance. Your refutations are…
I assert that is VERY likely not true as a blanket statement. Regardless, I think it’s undeniable it was easier then in earlier patches; the ones that put WoW at the top of the genre. My concern is completely legitimate. Statements of your feelings are not refutations. Attempts to delegitimize my arguments with strawmen are insufficient to convince anyone who doesn’t already believe the same as you. I think I am done unless you can come up with better arguments than that you feel I am wrong.
Mob level doesn’t change damage (hit table yes, damage no). Blizzard dove into numbers multiple times and confirmed they are accurate.
Also going to point out that I tanked SM (all the way through Cath) on this guy and on PServers (even the one with buffed mob damage) before hitting 35. So… does it really make a difference?
Again you think its a legitimate concern. Where are you basing this on?
People constantly complained that Kronos was too easy. Meanwhile, Nost was overtuned and became hugely popular.
Before you say, “these are private server veterans”, most peoples first and last pserver was Nost and there’s very little difference between Nost and the Classic community. The “hardcore” community is just a small percentage of that.
I mean wow launched top of the genre, and that was due to its ease (really the following of the warcraft universe) compared to the other games at the time. We’ve been over this though it was still “hard enough” . Yet still a complete joke to the mmo vets of the time. So I don’t know that it being too easy now is going to ruin anything.
Mob level doesn’t change damage (hit table yes, damage no). Blizzard dove into numbers multiple times and confirmed they are accurate.
I’m aware that they’re accurate, captain obvious.
Also going to point out that I tanked SM (all the way through Cath) on this guy and on PServers (even the one with buffed mob damage) before hitting 35. So… does it really make a difference?
I mean wow launched top of the genre, and that was due to its ease compared to the other games at the time. We’ve been over this though it was still “ hard enough ” . Yet still a complete joke to the mmo vets of the time. So I don’t know that it being too easy now is going to ruin anything.
Again, we already have a reference for how players react to difficulty (see Kronos 1 for the 20th time). If you’re unwilling to learn from history, well, there’s a word for that.
We also have another reference: retail. Anyone playing retail can tell you that it doesn’t feel good when you complete a Warfront. Why? Because it’s basically impossible to lose. It’s not fun to faceroll dungeons.
I remember very clearly how easy I thought it was. I used to laugh at people when they said stuff was hard. Yet I still found myself in groups constantly because of the difficulty level. I still used CC at every opportunity. I really don’t think you understand what I mean by a “hard enough” threshold.
If it is below the threshold I assert it will ruin everything. It’s really not complicated. Is the value y above or below the line. We will call this algebra 1 level comprehension of concept.