You confused? What is this forum about?
You confused? What is this forum about?
The definition of taking things out of context. Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish.
"No changes from what? Vanilla as a whole? or 1.12, the easiest state of Vanilla difficulty?
I get that they went with 1.12 because it’s the most polished version of the game, but it was by far the easiest version, which is not really a good thing."
Numbers don’t matter. The EXPERIENCE does. Everyone steamrolling is NOT how retail vanilla was and classic shouldn’t be that way either. I’m not saying it was hard, but it put up some resistance unlike what we are seeing on streams.
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Then you were one of the bad players. I never had issues or struggled in dungeons
… I don’t remember the game being hard at all. It just took longer…
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In order to “not have changes” in the sense that the game plays the same as it did throughout almost all of Vanilla, some mobs, dungeons, and raids may need to be buffed to compensate for class and game changes that occurred near the end of Vanilla’s life (1.12), where leveling difficulties were much less of a concern than the end tier raid that was put in.
Private servers realized that “no changes from experience” required “changes to mob difficulty” for those portions of the game that lagged behind class development.
If you see what you perceive as a “change” and immediately scream “NO CHANGES” without thinking logically, you might be contributing to a loss of the Vanilla experience for all of us.
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You can not compare your own experiences and expectations on private servers, or experiences from 15 years ago, to classic.
It just doesn’t work. The dungeons being “steamrolled” right now are by players who are coordinating with discord, are all experienced, and have characters that are completely maxed out due to server cap.
Compare that to what classic will be due to lack of level caps. People wearing level 20 gear into their 40’s because that dungeon they ran once, didn’t drop that replacement.
In vanilla we were undergeared, inexperienced and uncoordinated. You can’t compare that with streamer experiences and use that as a benchmark to demand a difficulty change.
I do not disagree with this statement, and it is a good point; however, in addition to watching streamers that outgear the zone, I have also watched streamers who didn’t. It seemed both easier than I remember, and much more important, it seemed too easy. There is also many years of pserver experience that can’t be discounted as irrelevant, because it isn’t. It isn’t perfectly relevant, but it is another meaningful data point. There is also no denying the fact that nearly all classes (maybe all classes?) changed a great deal from when we were first leveling through the game, all of them being enhanced in power to one extent or another.
I am not suggesting we just throw a 30% buff to damage and health on top of all mobs, or even just all dungeon and tier 1 and 2 raid mobs, but I do think such a change (or similar) is worthy of consideration, discussion, and testing to recapture what it was really like during the initial leveling, dungeon, and first tiers raiding process.
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Could say the same watching literally anything. Doesn’t make it true no matter how many armchair coaches you know.
Umm, sure? Let me put it this way:
We have evidence that it is not hard enough. That evidence is inconclusive, but inconclusive evidence should not negate any possible discussions or even decision making, it just suggests that it’s important to look for more evidence before coming to any conclusions.
So… IF it is not hard enough, which is entirely possible and all evidence that we have so far points to it, leaving the dungeons as is WILL diminish the experience from what we had originally. In other words, this “if” statement, if true and nothing is done about it, will make Classic less Vanilla than Vanilla was. That’s not OK with me.
This is really no different than the AV debate. People want 1.5 (or some other than 1.12) version because it was more difficult (PvE wise). That is mixing and matching different versions of Vanilla to make a better Classic. Mixing and matching the real dungeon difficulty is an identical process.
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Look at the history of the rest of the xpacs and the xpacs themselves. As time went on, things just got easier and easier and easier. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that 1.12 being a nerfed version of 1.1 is a very real possibility. We already know it will be a nerfed level 60 “end game”.
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I asked for vanilla, not the most watered down patch of vanilla.
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This is just untrue. 1-10 content remained untouched completely until cataclysm. There is a compiled list of all dungeon changes in all patch notes (documented and undocumented) earliest dungeon touched was Ulda/ZF.
So unless blizz was nerfing stuff without ever mentioning it to anyone (no one would know if that was the case) they were just that easy.
Didn’t they change things in Wrath? I thought some aggressive mobs in the starter zone changed to passive?
Maybe it was wrath but it was definitely untouched through vanilla and BC.
I like pie. And cake. … and bacon. also i like chocolate.
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No you do not. Blizz has posted evidence that it’s tuned properly.
This is nothing like the AV debate. You’re asking for an adjustment to the game that didn’t exist. 1.12 did exist, and it exists currently in classic beta.
That’s a personal problem, and not a reason for changes to an entire game.
Which I think is what all of this is about. Your personal opinion guised some sort of attempt of a rational argument.
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I too like those things.
How do you feel about cheese, hmm?
No. No increased difficulty. Not everyone joining will be a seasoned wow vet or even a gaming vet. Lets not base beginner dungeons around the seasoned playerbase.
For those thinking that dungeons underwent huge nerfs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10VX4klI8ZbqQKIce7r7UZ6ItIpM5lft0/view
Link to all dungeon nerfs in vanilla compiled in one easy list. Ulda is the earliest dungeon touched with only 3 changes (that are minor changes).
Then go back to the private servers.
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Blizz has posted that what we have is identical to 1.12. I do not dispute that. What I dispute is that what we have identical to the difficulty that was present in all the iterations in the two years prior to the end of Vanilla, which is what 1.12 is.
I am asking for an adjustment to the game to make it the same difficulty as what existed.
Let me ask you this, do you deny that classes in general were more powerful by 1.12 than in 1.1, or 1.5, etc.?
As for AV, we have zero experience with 1.12 classes in 1.5 AV. THAT situation never existed. Therefore it is asking for something that never existed so that the game can be more difficult to preserve the “Vanilla experience”. Which is exactly what I am asking for.
I am asking for no effective difficulty changes. 1.12 classes in 1.1 dungeons and raids, etc. is a change that I claim is different according to the evidence we have. (You are conflating inconclusive evidence with no evidence, that’s on you.)
While I do not expect you to believe my claim, we absolutely should be having a discussion about it and testing it, because if my claim is true this game will not be authentic to the original experience. IF it is not authentic to the original experience, I claim that is a change because 1.12 classes with 1.1 tuned dungeons and early raids is not the original game, but rather strictly the 1.12 game, which was worse by this measure.
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