Dual spec please

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

@Ziryus-pagle

Retail spec obviously has a lot of other changes included far beyond dual spec.

So #nocha nges then?

Nope dual spec

Which is neither #nochanges or retail spec

Weird how trying to create a binary position just doesn’t work for you. I certainly haven’t taken that position with dual spec, dual spec with a cool down and being in town would be fine while also satisfying the main reasons people want dual spec.

[Riger-arugal]

@Ziryus-pagle

Weird how trying to create a binary position just doesn’t work for you.

Works fine for me it’s exactly the same. You ignore the compromise I will support and my reasoning and then mischaracterise it without justification as nochanges

#champaigneQualityDiscussionZityusStyle

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

@Ziryus-pagle

Weird how trying to create a binary position just doesn’t work for you.

Works fine for me it’s exactly the same. You ignore the compromise I will support and my reasoning and the n mischaracterise without justification as nochanges

#champaigneQualityDiscussionZityusStyle

Your compromise doesn’t actually address all the reasons people want dual spec. Whereas adding some restrictions to dual spec would address all the issues raised with dual spec while being acceptable for the people who want dual spec.

Unless your compromise is calling it arena spec in the GUI but you can actually use it anywhere, you know like how specs work.

[Egwyn-arugal]

???

Us: we want dual spec

You guys: yeah well why not the tri spec system from retail???

Us: because tri-spec only comes with the complete talent system overhaul, and we dont like the new system. Why are we talking about this anyway, we’re not asking for tri spec to begin with…

You guys: why not? Its just a bunch of new talents, same as you got in wrath!

Us: uh… because we don’t like the tiered talent system? And by that logic, the TBC talent trees are “different” from vanilla because they have new talents as well. Anyway can we get back t-

You: UM WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT TALENT TREES??? THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT DUAL SPEC

You’re actually cooked.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

@Ziryus-pagle

Your compromise doesn’t

Good this is getting somewhere for now. Looks like to for tatting you has some value.

I don’t accept all the reasons given.

Arena as I’ve discussed is a special case as RP elements are already decoupled from gameplay mechanics to a special degree not present elsewhere. Also, Arena is far more spec dependent and restrictive. It’s rated and competitive. Additionally arena participation is a much bigger problem.

That’s a sum mary - I outlined the detail months ago.

Except that from a pure RP perspective respeccing now is at least as garbage as dual spec.

How is going to some guy, him bonking you on the head, then having to do a fourth wall breaking exercise to change talents better RP than that same person teaching you how to learn two sets of talents which you can then switch between?

I’d be all in favor of a long quest chain alla T.5 set to unlock dual spec, that would be real RP. How is that for a compromise? A class specific quest chain to unlock dual spec? Heckz yeah.

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Zipzo-atiesh

First of all, retail does have talent trees, they just look and work differently. Pretty sure in-game they are still called talents.

They are completely and inalienably different. Like what are you smoking. If you think they’re basically the same thing, maybe it’s you that should go play retail?

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Zipzo-atiesh

So why is that too far but dual spec isn’t in a context where #somechanges = Blizzard could do anything?

Zipzo, ok, let’s back up a second here. You seem to be under this mistaken impression where you think in order to ask for a particular change, we then have to provide reasons not to come out in support of whatever other arbitrary change you get to choose. Like LFR. Or demon hunters. Or the retail talent system.

But actually, we don’t. The only answer we have to give is “because I’m not asking for that feature”. If I feel like it, I’ll throw you a bone and give you a paragraph or two about why I don’t want whatever dumbo retail feature you’re trying to draw a false equivalence with, but other than that, I’m just going sit here laughing at your illogic.

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Riger-arugal

So? I mean there’s no limit on change so long as it’s an improvment no?

Unless there is too much change? Then where’s the line? That’s the point of this line of discussion, it’s to understand why, in your head, retail talents are too much change and WoTLK are just right.

Obviously one involves more change than the other but why is that an issue to you?

I actually wanted TBC with as close to no changes as possible. Not completely no changes - quality of life things like no spell batching, better netcode, 16:9 aspect ratio, DX 11 support etc sure. But game design wise, I was keen to have it as close to how it was as possible. I’d take the good with the bad.

I wanted arena gear with no rating requirement in seasons 1 and 2 (even though I can clearly obtain weapons and shoulders whenever).

I wanted teams starting at 1500, so when you made a new team, you never knew who you’d be facing for the first few games. Could be glads, could be noobs.

I wanted to have to fight against good American players, with me on less than ideal ping, for my rating.

I was keen for whatever random new version of battlegroups we had, and for rank 1 to actually mean rank 1 again.

I was keen for the new, revamped armory, exactly how it was in TBC originally, with all its amazing arena statistics tracked over time; rating changes, who your opponents were, damage and healing dealt, minute details like that all tracked.

I wanted servers that felt like they did back then, perhaps scaled so that even though there might be many more people on a server, there’d be more resources, so that wpvping over nodes and herbs was a thing again, and the servers kind of “felt” the same. But if not, so be it.

I was even keen to have the talent trees progress with the patches. It would’ve been kinda fun to raid T4 as fire without iceblock again, and have to really be careful about my threat because mages didn’t have a get out of jail free card. And then enjoy getting baseline iceblock and icy veins for frost some time down the line.

I didn’t get what I wanted.

Instead, I got this dumpster fire of a game with half the retail ladder system but teams (the worst aspect of TBC), hard-locked 2.4.3 talents, boosts and HvH battlegrounds and no incentive for people to ever, ever roll alliance, 75:25 ratio servers where it’s just a gankfest, region-locked arenas and BGs that never pop, dumbo warpstalkers running around, mid-tier nerfed content and a whole other bunch of other things.

These changes are quite clearly here to stay. They’re not going anywhere, blizzard have indicated (through inaction) that they’re happy with the state of things. For me the point of “too much change” happened a long, long time ago.

At this point I’m not obliged to justify why I want changes, or where the line should be drawn. I’m not the one proposing the first big change that would break the fragile mold that was nochanges. It’s already broken. It’s a free-for-all where everyone asks for their changes, and more often than not they get answered. I didn’t want it, I didn’t start it, but I’ll be damned if I won’t at least get changes that are good for me into the game, now.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Ziryus-pagle

Other than that retail specs do a lot more than just add a mechanic to change between two talent sets?

Do I have to ask again or do you take pleasure in refusing to ever answer my question and simply asking a question back?

Tell me, why is one thing too far, and the other isn’t?

[Egwyn-arugal]

Tell me, why are HvH BGs fine but dual spec isn’t?

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Egwyn-arugal

Zipzo, ok, let’s back up a second here. You seem to be under this mistaken impression where you think in order to ask for a particular change, we then have to provide reasons not to come out in support of whatever other arbitrary change you get to choose. Like LFR. Or demon hunters. Or the retail talent system.

You’re obligated to make clear where the line is drawn for your argument to make sense. If you can’t do that, you may as well be asking for demon hunters or LFR.

@Egwyn-arugal

Tell me, why are HvH BGs fine but dual spec isn’t?

If you’re asking me, neither are.

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Zipzo-atiesh

If you’re asking me, neither are.

Then why aren’t you spending as much effort asking for HvH battlegrounds to be reverted as you are fighting dual spec?

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Egwyn-arugal

Then why aren’t you spending as much effort asking for HvH battlegrounds to be reverted as you are fighting dual spec?

I did argue against same faction BGs but it’s in the game now and the likelihood of it being removed is 0%.

[Egwyn-arugal]

The fact that you’re not means you’re tacitly implying that HvH is fine. In which case you have no business standing against Dual spec.

[Riger-arugal]

I completely agree on most of what you stated here.

Change is the only way out from here. But if there is change do it right

That’s why I don’t support a copy paste job of WoTLK dual spec. It won’t do what people think it will do.

I remember being involved heavily in the dual spec debate back in late original TBC. I was strongly on the side of adding it and strongly in support of the “bring the player not the class” design model GC was promising.

When it came in, I was elated. Except, it didn’t work. At least not from where I sat.

Tank shortages were still a massive issue. The guild I was in were still sweaty af and gaming the new dual spec system.

It turned out two specs weren’t enough.

That’s why I oppose it, it further erodes the TBC game design but doesn’t give anything back in return. It doesn’t work. Later expansions did much of what WoTLK tried to do better.

What I’d rather see is better more tailored changes (and change suggestions). Thus my support for being able to set up an arena spec that toggles an arena spec and UI Loadout on entry into an arena. Something new and cool that fits withing this game.

Arena is one area where I do think a second spec will increase participation. It is also already decoupled from the RP elements of TBC. You can do things with arena and pretty much know it’s not going to have flown effects to the wider game - except with loot.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

Not really the same.

The likelihood of same faction bgs being taken out vs the likelihood of dual spec being added are about the same: 0%.

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Zipzo-atiesh

likelihood of it being removed is 0%.

How do you know about the likelihood of things? Weren’t you guys criticizing us for supposedly saying “dual spec was going to be added 100%” but we couldn’t prove it?

It’s so easy throwing out low-effort bait responses the way you guys like to do. This is kind of refreshing.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

If you’re just here to troll I can report you, but I’m not trolling. I truly do not want dual spec in the game, and you’d ruin the experience for me in whatever weird reality it would be added (it won’t).

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

That’s why I don’t support a copy paste job of WoTLK dual spec. It won’t do what people think it will do.

But why won’t it?

We know exactly how dual spec works. What is so different about TBC that it won’t work the same as it did in Wrath?

[Riger-arugal]

@Ziryus-pagle

But why won’t it?

Been there done that. Not jumping through your circus hoop. You I do not trust at all.