Dual spec please

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

Been there done that. Not jumping through your circus hoop. You I do not trust at all.

So you have no answer.

@Riger-arugal

When it came in, I was elated. Except, it didn’t work. At least not from where I sat.

Why not?

[Riger-arugal]

@Ziryus-pagle

So you have no answer.

Not to you.

There’s four people in this discussion that are disingenuous tricksters who I don’t trust at all. You’re one of them.

Every question you ask is a trap.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

When it came in, I was elated. Except, it didn’t work. At least not from where I sat.

Why not???

What did not work as expected? From what I could see it worked exactly as expected, I could switch between two specs and so could others, and people definitely did so.

If you thought it would fix the tank/healer shortage that was a you problem, if you also don’t think it helped that is also a you problem.

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Riger-arugal

I remember being involved heavily in the dual spec debate back in late original TBC. I was strongly on the side of adding it and strongly in support of the “bring the player not the class” design model GC was promising.

When it came in, I was elated. Except, it didn’t work. At least not from where I sat.

Tank shortages were still a massive issue. The guild I was in were still sweaty af and gaming the new dual spec system.

It turned out two specs weren’t enough.

The problem with the “bring the player not the class” philosophy was, in order to realize it they had to go down the rabbithole of homogenization (and pruning, eventually). All healers got a magic dispel. All DPS classes got decent AOE. All tanks became able to hold AOE threat. And thus the game lost that special feeling where classes had strengths and weaknesses, but compensated for each other and worked together in a raid setting (or an arena team setting).

Ultimately, classes need to be well designed and fun to play. And then you need to enable people to play them. Dual spec is just an enabler. If class design is terrible, dual spec isn’t going to fix the tank shortage. On the flipside, I enjoyed blood DK so much in cataclysm that I switched mains to it, and I tanked stupid amounts dungeons and raids in cataclysm, simply because the class was fun, and the encounters were fun. Many was the random that benefitted from me tanking a dungeon. And dual spec let me do it whenever.

[Riger-arugal]

Yes I think you’re probably right about this. I soured on the concept down the line too when I saw what the outcomes were.

I don’t think dual spec does act as a genuine enabler though.

In the end I think the current TBC spec and respecting system works fine. The only real problem area is with arena players in my view.

There are better flexible talent systems out there than dual spec.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

I soured on the concept down the line too when I saw what the outcomes were.

What were these outcomes that so soured you?

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Egwyn-arugal

The problem with the “bring the player not the class” philosophy was, in order to realize it they had to go down the rabbithole of homogenization (and pruning, eventually). All healers got a magic dispel. All DPS classes got decent AOE. All tanks became able to hold AOE threat. And thus the game lost that special feeling where classes had strengths and weaknesses, but compensated for each other and worked together in a raid setting (or an arena team setting).

This is actually one of the reasons I don’t want dual spec.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

@Egwyn-arugal

The problem with the “bring the player not the class” philosophy was, in order to realize it they had to go down the rabbithole of homogenization (and pruning, eventually). All healers got a magic dispel. All DPS classes got decent AOE. All tanks became able to hold AOE threat. And thus the game lost that special feeling where classes had strengths and weaknesses, but compensated for each other and worked together in a raid setting (or an arena team setting).

Th is is actually one of the reasons I don’t want dual spec.

Dual spec had nothing to with that though.

[Egwyn-arugal]

It literally doesn’t affect that though. What’s the difference between clicking a trainer and paying 50g to respec, versus activating your secondary spec?

[Zipzo-atiesh]

Dual spec de-emphasizes your chosen spec because you now have multiple tools to be able to call on.

Source: the literal reason they wouldn’t add it back in original TBC.

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Zipzo-atiesh

Source: the literal reason they wouldn’t add it back in original TBC.

I’ve heard that that’s not the reason at all, but I can’t provide the citation. However I’m like 90% sure what you just said is wrong.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

Dual spec de-emphasizes your chosen spec because you now have multiple tools to be able to call on.

You cannot switch specs in combat so no you can’t.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

bluetracker.gg/wow/topic/us-en/98646792-we-need-free-respecs-or-spec-swapping/

This has been addressed many times before and I have to tell you, the answer is still “no” to both for the same reasons we’ve always given. There should be real investment into choosing a spec and reducing the cost or making it easy to do simple swaps would make the whole purpose moot.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Ziryus-pagle

cannot switch specs in combat so no you can’t.

If you’re not smart enough to understand why this point is irrelevant, then you don’t deserve the dignity of further discussion on the issue.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

@Ziryus-pagle

cannot switch specs in combat so no you can’t.

If you’re not smart enough to understand why this point is irrelevant, then you don’t des erve the dignity of further discussion on the issue.

So please explain how dual spec allows be to use say Tree form and Moonkin in the same fight, since you know you claimed it lets me bring more tools.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Zipzo-atiesh

There should be real investment into choosing a spec and reducing the cost or making it easy to do simple swaps would make the whole purpose moot.

Just gonna keep pasting this until you can make sense of it, I have no issue making sense of it, no reason you can’t.

[Riger-arugal]

@Ziryus-pagle

What were these outcomes that so soured you

It’s a trap but I’ll bite.

I found the game less fun.

The same problems were there but I also found the game more generic and less fun. The loot system became a boring meaningless token grind from meaningless dungeon crawls with strangers. Dailies and more dailies and then a characterless workmanlike raid called ToC.

Ulduar was good and icecrown okay but generally speaking I had less fun in WoTLK and felt it was more of a chore than any other iteration of the game I’ve played. I quit and came back a couple of times through wrath.

The design model failed as far as I am concerned.

Obviously many others don’t agree, they’re welcome to play WoTLK classic when it comes. But for me it promised sooo much but in reality was easily the weakest and least engaging of the three early wow games. So, no - “let’s transpose X WoTLK feature onto TBC classic” does not excite me. I’m open to change but don’t view WoTLK as an improvement.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

@Zipzo-atiesh

There should be real investment into choosing a spec and reducing the cost or making it easy to do simple swaps would make the whole purpose moot.

Just gonna keep pasting this until you can make sense of it, I have no issue making sense of it, no reason you can’t.

Right so you’re agreeing dual spec does not let me use moonkin and treeform in the same fight.

Glad you understand that.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Ziryus-pagle

Right so you’re agreeing dual spec does not let me use moonkin and treeform in the same fight.

lmao, I never said it did allow that?

It still removes the investment in choosing a spec, making the purpose of your spec moot.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

@Ziryus-pagle

What were these outcomes that so soured you

It’s a trap but I’ll bite.

I found the game less fun.

The same problems were there but I also found the game more generic and less fun. The loot system became a boring meaningless token grind from meaningless dungeon crawls with strangers. Dailies and more dailies and then a characterless workmanlike raid called ToC.

Ulduar was good and icecrown okay but generally speaking I had less fun in WoTLK and felt it was more of a chore than any other iteration of the game I’ve played. I quit and came back a couple of times through wrath.

The design model failed as far as I am concerned.

Obviously many others don’t agree, they’re welcome to play WoTLK classic when it comes. But for me it promised sooo much but in reality was easily the weakest and least engaging of the three early wow games. So, no - “let’s transpose X WoTLK feature onto TBC classic” does not excite me

What do any of those problems have to do with dual spec though?

It sounds more like you were just getting burned out in general.