So even though Classic was originally based off of the Legion client, and has probably evolved since then, meaning it’s based off a client where the retail version of tri-spec was a thing, you think reaching back to a feature that was actually cut and removed in favor of that is the better negotiation?
There is no negotiation. I’m just asking for what I want and what I think will improve the game for most people both directly and indirectly. You seem to think I should ask for more than I want. I simply pointed out that people only ask for more than they want as a negotiating tactic and since I’m not in a negotiation I just ask for what I want.
I actually hate negotiation. And because I don’t like it I’m not very good at it. I spent a year in Mexico and the thing I hated the most was that every time you went to a store you were expected to barter over the price. Some people like to play that game, I don’t.
2 Likes
Tri-spec was added when the old talent trees were removed, and the new talent system that allowed for almost unrestricted talent swapping was added, when half your abilities were given to you baseline simply for choosing “a spec”. Tri-spec never existed simultaneously with the old (BC and Wrath) talent system.
I’m not arguing for the new talent system. I hate the new talent system. Therefore, it doesn’t make sense to argue for tri-spec, even if I wanted it, since the technology is tied to the new system. That said, if blizzard wanted to develop new code that allowed free switching between up to 3 specs in the current talent system - great. It’s more than I need. I don’t think it’s likely, though, since the classic team doesn’t seem to have the bandwidth to develop true “new” features, only toggle current ones on or off.
Much like you attempting to get us to argue for other features we don’t want, I’m not sure what your endgame is though. Misdirection? Thinning our support base? Wasting our time? Drawing a blatantly false equivalence? But my answer is the same. If you genuinely want the feature, go make a thread.
2 Likes
Man, I am so glad all you whiners, I mean winners such as Feywaif finally got your dual sp…
Oh.
Guess we’ll file this as another one in the “continued failures” drawers of their lives!
2 Likes
Yeah nice one
It draws on a blatant dishonest approach to the discussion of what changes are appropriate and what changes aren’t.
If you can’t admit to me that something is too far, then you’ve failed to demonstrate that you have standards.
Blizzard 100%, without any shadow of a doubt, has standards. We know they won’t add anything and everything. They have a methodology for what they think is appropriate or not, and that’s where the “#allchanges” criticism comes in to play, because people are acting like “some changes” opens the door for literally any change, and it simply doesn’t. It opens the door to some changes, where “some” is symbolic as a line in the sand somewhere.
My argument is that dual spec is outside of that line.
You want dual spec, so you would argue that it is within the line.
However if you have no line, and are simply of the opinion that Blizzard may or may not do literally anything to the game simply because they said “some changes”, then you’re a lost cause discussion-wise because you aren’t even arguing within any set of realistic or practical parameters that we know Blizzard is using for changes they make.
You’re just wish-listing at that point. You’re unreasonable.
3 Likes
Why not though?
Core to your position is that inserting much more spec flexibility into the game has zero impact on gameplay and is a net positive due to added convenience (not a proposition I accept btw)? Surely the same argument can equally be applied to dual spec. The retail system is much simpler and more convenient no?
This speaks to Zipzos point about where you choose to draw the line. It’s seemingly completely arbitrary.
You understand the retail talent system has significantly more changes to it than just “you can switch between 3 specs” like completely removing talent trees in favor of tiered talents and being part of ability pruning because a number of talents are baked into specs not classes.
So yeah it’s pretty ignorant to say that having 3 specs is the same as retail talents.
2 Likes
Yes I understand that, but you assure me that dual spec has zero negative game impact, even that flexibility is purely convenience adding. So why not maximise the convenience? By what heuristic do you decide that WoTLK model dual spec is the place to settle?
No, I’m trying to make sense of your position. To get you et Al to describe the logic behind where you choose to draw the line between good change and too much.
Currently it seems the way you draw the line is by positing the WoTLK model as best and anything before or after as not as good - in short, you like the WoTLK model. It’s arbitrary.
Of course this has been pointed out hundreds of times already over many many months.
Anyways, I made the mistake of re-entering the discussion. Carry on with your petition, you want what you want and apparently that’s all the justification needed.
Are you seriously asking why a slightly different way to do something we already do in TBC is not the same as something that completely changes not only how talent trees work but how all class abilities work? Retail specs do a lot more than just add convenience, a lot of which people have really disliked.
Now if you’re asking whether i would care if we could have 3 or more specs instead of just two in the current talent tree system I wouldn’t care one way or the other. But then that’s not the retail system now is it?
1 Like
Because the retail talent system adds things to the game that you couldn’t do before. New spells from different talents that don’t exist in BC. Dual spec just makes it easier to do what you can already do for gold. Several of us have already said we’d be fine with tri-spec instead of dual spec but we don’t need it so we’re not asking for it.
1 Like
Okay well I guess we differ on this.
I actually genuinely prefer the system in retail to the dual spec system in Wrath. The retail system works and fits that game, it’s a decent system. I don’t think either system fits TBC though.
I much prefer the talent system in classic and TBC to either.
The retail system is superior to the wrath system in that it actually achieves what dual spec tried to achieve but failed to. It actually allows people to seamlessly access and switch between multiple modes of the game and, when combined with adaptive armor stats, does achieve more alleviation in queue times and such.
To my mind the wrath model is the worst of all possible worlds. So I am curious as to why people stop at that model. Granted WoTLK was not my favourite version of the game and I’ll probably not be playing Wrath classic.
Why change something not broken into something that was broken?
Wrath literally has the same talent system as TBC and Classic, Cata has some changes in that you have to go to 31 in a tree before splitting off.
1 Like
Dude dual spec and a lot of different talents is not the same as TBC. I get you want a change but why do you want to change to something that isn’t even an improvement? My guess is that you prefered that version of the game, good for you I didn’t.
The way you talk about it TBC is just Wrath before the Devs perfected it into Wrath - a sort of wrath prebeta… That’s not my view.
You need to establish why the current talent system needs a change and then why the wrath dual spec as opposed to a different one.
People keep saying that but can’t come up with rational reasons why. I’m an altoholic and I played vanilla and BC with alts that had dual spec. It’s just a qol change.
There are several reasons why people ask for dual spec and not tri-spec or the retail respecing system. For most people 2 specs is sufficient so it will get the most support. And it’s a well know system so people don’t have to spend a lot of time learning about it before forming an opinion on whether it should be added. And people don’t like retail so even the smallest of change mentioned will be irrationally hated on the spot with out consideration if the word retail is attached to it.
1 Like
So does WOTLK dual spec lol, why do you keep arguing this. You’re talking about talent trees from retail. We’re talking about spec management.
Retail has a bunch of new spells and stuff, but so does WOTLK.
Obviously when talking about dual spec or retail spec, we’re ignoring all the new spells and abilities that come as a result of it coming from a different expansion.
1 Like
Dual spec does not change how a single talent or ability work.
And the mechanics of how the trees themselves work was exactly the same in Wrath as it was in TBC and Vanilla. If you’re trying to claim adding more talents somehow massively changed how the trees work then TBC was also massively different than vanilla now wasn’t it?
The first major change to the actual mechanics of the trees was in Cata, when they added the requirement to go deep in one tree before you could switch.
1 Like
Neither does retail spec.
You seem to think we are talking about talent trees, for some reason, even though we do you the fav or of ignoring WOTLK talents/spells/abilities when talking about dual spec…
1 Like
Ah it’s so nice when people have no clue what they’re talking about.
We literally are talking about talent trees, retail does not have talent trees it has a tiered talent system where you unlock tiers based on level.
1 Like