Two specs. Hence the name. And I want it just as Blizzard had designed it.
My only assertion is this:
Given there has been no proposed implementation for dual spec there is a potential that one or more of infinite possible implementations of dual spec could damage class balance. I then provided one (obvious) example - Stacking classes with a dual spec.
I’ll be more specific -
Currently Druid tanks are very popular - because they can do decent DPS in the same spec and mostly the same gear they use for Tanking. However, if you can change spec in a raid why not just bring a Warrior or Pally Tank that can switch to DPS on the fly when OTing? There is then the possibility that a raid meta could develop where Druids aren’t included in raids as Tanks.
That’s one specific example. And you will rightly claim that I have no way of knowing exactly if that will be the implementation or if the community would respond in that way. But that’s not the point - the point is they can, it’s one (of many) foreseeable possible outcomes for that specific implementation of a dual spec. So you - as the one proposing the change - need to satisfy me (and those like me) who have doubts about it, that this will not happen and that the implementation you propose (currently none) will preserve the integrity of the game.
It is not on me to propose every possible example of every possible implementation that could go wrong nor is it on me to prove that it will go wrong.
A related question I asked a while back - which still stands and never gets answered - is this: why won’t a less risky and less potentially impactful solution to the problem of role shortages suffice? Such as reduced respec cost.
For the record I have two unanswered questions:
- What implementation of dual spec are you asking for?
- Why won’t a less invasive solution such as reduced respec costs suffice?
Are there better examples than the one I used? Probably. I’m far from a game expert. Anyone with half a brain can see there could be negative game play consequences for some implementations of Dual spec.
3 Likes
False.
That is not why Druid tanks are popular. I keep seeing this repeated and I keep debunking it. Here’s the damage breakdown of the Druid tank in the fastest Karazhan speed clear in the world:
They also had a Prot Pally. The Druid was in Bear form the vast majority of the run. Prot Warriors in Fury gear can DPS almost as well as a Cat Druid while also providing automatic sundering on trash mobs and bosses via Devastate spam.
598 Swipes.
292 Mauls.
51 Shreds. Like, come on.
It depends on the tier. In later tiers my analogy falls down a bit but that doesn’t matter. It is obviously the case that some implementations of Dual spec will get gamed.
And I keep giving pointless hypothetical examples of the bleeding obvious to people demanding a change they can’t even flesh out an implementation for.
You’re just here to promote your cause and find herrings. You actually have no interest at all in the integrity of the game.
There are obviously other examples of class stacking that could be given as examples - it is a blindingly obvious possible outcome of some dual spec implementations. You can play dumb all you like, anyone with half an ounce of common sense can see this and can also see through this so called discussion which is nothing less than a rally for a feature change driven by people with no interest in the integrity of the game itself.
3 Likes
No, it doesn’t. Your analogy fails because it’s based on a false premise. Druid tanks are not brought to raids because they can go into Cat form and put out mediocre DPS.
I’m blocking you now, it’s a waste of my time responding to you.
Good.
You’re picking herrings with an example I draw of a possible outcome without actually addressing the core point at all. So, it’s not like we were actually having a productive discussion.
I’ve given up hoping for you (and the others you’re backing) to actually address the simple questions: how do you proposing dual spec want it implemented? And why won’t a less elaborate solution suffice?
I don’t trust that you have anyone’s interests at heart except your own, so please block me, you’ve basically ignored my point the whole while anyway. You’ll continue to attempt to selfishly cajole and petition the devs to remake the game in your own image irrespective of what me or anyone else says.
This thread and others like it are not about opinions or discussion, their sole function is to pressure the developers into giving you what you want. It’s the toxic entitled culture of this forum. If one of it’s devotees chooses to block me I reckon that’s probably a result. Less squealing entitled children peeing in my pool. Maybe go find another game while you’re at it - you clearly don’t like this one.
4 Likes
And yet, here you are - expressing that toxic entitled nochange attitude culture of the game, forum and community.
Lol, I actually support some change.
I’ll ask again - what implementation are you proposing?
Rather than pick herrings maybe just answer the question? I’m asking it in good faith - I don’t think all implementations are equally egregious - there is genuine discussion that could be had around this - if you were at all interested in having it.
In good faith I’ve offered a suggestion for a change I’d support and here it is again, drop respec costs to 20g. I’m on board with #somechanges. Just not #blankcheckgiveuswhateverwedemand.
I’m not convinced any change is needed but I’m happy to compromise and support changes that are low impact and easy to monitor and control.
Flesh out your proposed solution if you’re serious about discussing it.
In good faith I’ve also answered plenty of questions on this forum that were clearly designed to entrap.
The thing is you don’t actually care about the game impact. You just want to get your way. You’re not at all interested in discussion or compromise. Otherwise my simple question would get an answer and there would be something to actually discuss. This forum is used to petition not to discuss.
BTW - > Entitled:
believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. (Oxford Dictionary)
How are people who are not asking for changes “entitled” exactly?
Again you’re just doing pure sophistry and turning the discussion around.
You want to have the devs change the game to suit your own play style. No compromise, no outline of how you want it implemented, you want what you want and think you deserve to get it. It’s you who feels like you’re entitled to a game change - I don’t feel entitled to anything. I’ll play the game as it is until I stop finding it fun. I just don’t want people like you peeing in the pool.
2 Likes
It’s in the title of the thread.
That’s vague. What kind of dual spec? Sell me on it.
HOW … DO … YOU … WANT … DUAL SPEC … IMPLEMENTED?
3 Likes
https://worldofwarcraft.fandom.com/et/wiki/Dual_Talent_Specialization
THANK YOU!
Okay, so for those reading the thread that don’t want to follow an external link, here’s the bulk of it:
Setting your specializations
Once you have purchased dual spec, there are now two icons on the top right of the talent pane, representing your Primary and Secondary talent builds. You are able to preview and alter your new spec until you are happy with it (similar to the talent calculators on WorldofWarcraft.com).[2] When satisfied, you are able to apply your new talent spec for each of your Primary and Secondary talent builds. The specialization icon will be the same as whichever talent tree you invest the most talent points in).
Select the secondary spec icon and activate the build. Now you can again configure talents, action bars, and glyphs.
Switching between specializations
Switching between talent specs takes 5 seconds, and all resource bars (mana, energy, rage, or Runic Power), except health are reset to zero[2] and some buffs are removed when doing so. Players cannot switch between specs during combat, in Battlegrounds (except during Preparation, before the battle begins), or in Arenas (no exception).[2]
To switch, pull up the talent pane, select the primary or secondary spec, and activate the talents. Once the 5 second cast is completed, your glyphs, action bars, and talents will all be restored to your other specialization.
Simple macro switching
If you want you can also use this macro. Just create a new macro, insert the text below and throw it into your bar. When you click it it will change your spec. Click again to change back.
Blockquote
Essentially this is the Cataclysm implementation.
You can switch spec on the fly and customise at will (out of combat).
In my opinion this would be one of the worst Dual spec implementations you could put into TBC.
Here’s why:
Starting in WoTLK and continuing into Cata Unique and often spec based abilities that were important to group content were made baseline to classes and universal across classes. Every class got an interrupt for example.
In TBC being able to respec on the fly out of combat and (importantly) to adjust specs on the fly will lead to some classes being able to supply all or most needed roles and debuffs for a raid while others can’t because the class simply doesn’t have that option.
This will most likely cause class stacking to occur in raids.
An example:
Paladins and Shamans who can switch roles and specs on the fly can tailor their builds to provide almost every buff and debuff type in the game tailored to each specific boss encounter or trash encounter - without limits. A few niche ones will be needed such as Arms war debuff but generally you could stack are raid mostly with Shaman and Pallys. You think people won’t try that?
Here’s the buff/debuffs list for TBC:
Here’s the list for Cata, way more evenly distributed:
Now, I’m no expert but even if my examples are off common sense informs us that being able to tailor your spec for specific encounters on the fly is a major game play change to introduce into TBC. You really can’t genuinely deny that.
This isn’t a #somechanges suggestion you’re making, it’s a major game play renovation that certainly will change how people engage with the content. It would be a game breaker for me as it would trivialise much of the content - by allowing groups to be able to optimise spec per encounter on the fly.
Imagine how much quicker and easier Nightbane kills would have been initially if groups could speed run Kara with two healers and then switch a dps to heals and add an extra dispeller on the fly for the one encounter? And you reckon it won’t be gamed that way for SSC or BT? Hmmm.
If this is what we get then back to Classic Vanilla I go. Not all implementations would be game breaking but I reckon this one would be. It would definitely not feel like TBC. So, if Bliz did something like this you can basically claim their commitment to only doing changes “in the spirit of the original game” is complete trash.
Would you support a more restrictive option? Such as only being able to switch spec once per week (without paying for a respec)? Or once per lockout?
My OP - Just lower respec costs, solves the issue entirely without having to get bogged down in the implementation argument. The game would still feel like TBC, spec choice would still feel impactful enough while easy enough to do for people running multiple roles in a given week. Problem solved and everybody somewhat happy.
5 Likes
Coulda fooled me… 
This is me, denying that:
I deny that.
How? This doesn’t add or subtract from anything talents don’t already do.
How?
Are you imagining Nightbane gains a debuff when this happens? Does Nightbane have his max health reduced? Does your raid receive 10% damage buff when someone dual specs?
What exactly is going on in your mind?
How exactly does this happen?
See above.
You can make anything look vague and incomplete by only quoting half of it.
Again - I give you a thought out honest reply and you reply with ‘trick of the light’ intentional misquotes purposely avoiding including any of the actual content of what I said while then claiming that such content doesn’t exist.
The intellectual dishonesty here is astounding. You literally don’t give a flying fig about anything but winning your argument and getting what you want.
It’s a toxic petition forum, and discussion is limited to misrepresenting those you oppose and bullying people to support petitions for personal buffs and benefits. Lame.
I’m waiting for you to now claim I added the quotes in with edits after the fact - I didn’t and I’ll edit as I see fit - anyone who followed the thread knows otherwise. But anyway my view hasn’t changed - it’s up front and above board and stands as is, your upcoming attempts to try and throw mud and lie mean nothing to me and are completely transparent and obvious. These are the norm for dirty tricks and sly tactics on this forum.
6 Likes
Your reply was that it makes encounters easier.
I’m asking you how.
I told you how.
Here it is again:
Especially on release having an extra dispeller and healer on Nightbane made the encounter significantly easier. How you ask? The fight isn’t a dps race, you can’t skip the three phase shifts by pew pewing harder. Having an extra person on dispels and maintaining another healer on the adds phase damn near turns a hard fight into a trivial one.
I am convinced you are intentionally playing dumb on this because it is clear as day how that would make the encounter easier to be able to speed run to that point and switch specs on the fly. You have me replying with what ifs that aren’t rocket science - you can easily imagine how this would work for yourself, you just don’t want to. You want to win your argument and get your free dev sponsored buff. To you, you’d probably be chuffed if the content were trivialised to your own personal comfort level. I mean, you proposed the Cata Dual spec model as suitable for TBC … You’re not even pretending to want a balanced solution.
3 Likes
It’s the “quicker and easier” part that I don’t understand. Please explain this to me.
Well by quicker I mean faster, and by easier I mean less difficult … capiche?
2 Likes
I understand the meaning of the words, but you still haven’t explained why or how those words apply here.
It’s hard to know with you - things I think are very clear cut and explained in a straightforward and complete manner seem to be completely perplexing to you.
I’ve explained it well enough for an average intelligence adult familiar with the game to be able to understand it.
If you have 7 dpsers 1 tank and 2 healers you kill things faster because you are doing more dps - following?
For most encounters this makes them easier too as you can avoid boss mechanics through getting the boss down prior to activation.
Then on the final fight where you can’t do that you can make the fight easier by having one of your dps switch to a decursing/healing spec and focus on dispels (the debuff is very harmful on Nightbane) and still maintain dedicated healing from the two additional sources. This makes it overall easier - less difficult. Overall the switching of specs to do this would make the entire run easier to do and faster overall than it would have been if people couldn’t switch specs on the fly. This is only one example. Your suggested Dual spec model can be gamed like this in many different ways and contexts in TBC.
That clear enough? You can’t seriously be struggling with this? Really?
I think you are using this as a distraction to keep your petition going. Another dirty trick to force what you want on everyone else.
3 Likes