And I’m so happy people on these forums always tell the truth. Including you, you trustworthy fellow, you!
Look, this has been made clear for what? A few weeks now that we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. You are biased in favor of it and the original dev team themselves could come give you the middle finger and tel you to sod off they didn’t design it for dual spec ever and you’d still be here arguing.
I will also be here arguing against it because it was the nature of the beast.
TBC was designed in an era where penalizing you for a choice was part of the experience. Your spec dictated how you played the game, gave you challenges in some areas and trivialized others. Dual Spec in Wrath redefined the game. Please name encounters where an interrupt or CC is absolutely necessary and only one niche class offers it in Wrath vs BC.
You can see a very dramatic change in the game model in Wrath over TBC. It became a “Bring the player, not the class.” Right now you could do any Wrath Heroic with a comp of your choice. TBC Heroics however you want a CC, you want slows, etc. This was by design. People complained Wrath heroics were too easy so we got Cata heroics. The design changes made it so people were so used to being what they want, when they wanted Blizzard had to go back and nerf the heroics because people couldn’t handle the BC model of “Take the class for the situation.” The model change had completely changed the culture of the players.
I"ve seen people make claims like that all the time. Then other people make the same claim and laugh at the first person’s claim. All I know is that people lie on the internet to further their goals and unverified appeals to authority is a longed used logical fallacy
Sure and you don’t need to believe me. My argument doesn’t stand and fall on whether you believe my account of my reasons. The core assertion, that adding a dual spec is programmatically trivial, is independently verifiable. Find a real life programmer friend and ask them how hard it is to implement a duplicate of an existing UI element and a toggle.
It’s not an appeal to authority (edit: well okay it is a bit but the argument stands without it), as belief isn’t required to follow the argument, but rather it is context and a reason why I doubt dual spec was technically difficult. You don’t have to take my word for it, ask around.
They could literally use the same assets they already had (for the first talent tab), duplicate it and make a toggle button to switch between them. Easy peasy.
If it was hard we wouldn’t exactly have addons like we do…
But didn’t we establish nobody lies on these forums?
Nobody here has ever bought gold and the guy who says he’s a programmer is definitely a programmer.
Also Paladins are just like they were in Vanilla TBC. Plus an extra seal, but we’re just going to pretend that doesn’t count.
Which I greatly appreciate. I think you’re a (something I cannot post without risking a suspension) But your posts keeps the topic on the front page and gives me the option of replying making the thread longer. The longer the topic the more likely it will come to blizzard’s attention. Over 12 hundred posts now.
And having seen the results blizzard immediately went about creating and adding dual spec.
It counts when you look at the impact each have exactly on the game. Show me in TBC where the game was designed specifically that you had to have vengeance. Show me where it was designed for blood. They were bits of flavor that were not created to directly impact the expansion or the game.
Now, Dual Spec. Look at the massive overhaul to the game itself to accommodate it. Raids, Dungeons, Skills, Classes, Encounters, all were redesigned to include Dual Spec. It was a feature they built the expansion around. They had to create an environment where Dual spec flourished and BC does not do that. A shadow priest will never be able to CC snare and slow like a mage in shattered halls, DS or not. However a Shadow priest can be 100% interchangeable with a mage as they designed it that the degree of CC and kiting used was non existent so you’d take that shadow priest if they were available over trying to find a mage thanks to Dual spec. And if they didn’t need that shadow priest they’d just go heals on the fly to accommodate the group.
Look at the continued design choices to this day Blizzard makes to completely accommodate the ability to change spec at will as a whole. The game is designed around it as a complete concept now.
I appreciate and respect that honesty, believe me I do.
You also believe Blizzard made the change on that reason. Ghostcrawler took the helm and changed the design of the game. His feelings “Take the player, not the class.” As I have explained countless times. This was his design mantra, and his team and he wanted a legacy for what he did for the game. The class designers for MoP did the same thing. Some folks argue that was the most amazing experience they’ve had with class uniqueness in years since the homogenization began with GC.
Wrath is GC’s WoW and his designs. He built the game for that design. This was another dev team, they did not build this game around it and it should stay out of it. Just as Ion’s team shouldn’t be in here making changes to GC’s team work.
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Exactly, amateur programmers are already able to whip up an in-game Talent tab, they could do it in Vanilla, it’s not at all difficult. Making an “if else” or “case” toggle between two talent setup states, also trivial if you have access to the game source code (presumably Bliz Devs do ;p). You would have the toggle call the same object that sets talent spec parameters when you respect normally. You’re calling existing code and not rewriting anything. It’s a few lines of code to toggle from one talent set up to the other.
The difficulty of implementing it is in how it effects game balance and integrating it into the game.
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What you’re saying is the pally change was GC’s design. It was added in his game, Wrath. It shouldn’t be added to this game. Or no, what you’re saying is I want the pally change from GC’s game design so it’s necessary but if I don’t want it it shouldn’t be added. The game should be designed for me, the changes I want and not the ones I don’t want
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He just never saw a reason in his “Bring the Player not the Class” design to have something like that unique without a purpose. And he saw so little purpose to it he removed them entirely in Cata. So they clearly were never important designs.
Again, you’re really trying here and you just have no leg to stand on. TBC’s game was not built around those Seals. They were flavor. You can’t show me where TBC was built around it, but I can certainly show you and have shown you where Dual Spec was built for the entire expansion. Again, huge difference.
Arguing apples to oranges at this point Fey.
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You have never done that. You made some undefinable claims about the “spirit” of the game which everyone has a different opinion about what that means. People have been arguing about what the “spirit” of the game means without ever reaching consensus since Classic was released
No I very much have.
Now, Dual Spec. Look at the massive overhaul to the game itself to accommodate it. Raids, Dungeons, Skills, Classes, Encounters, all were redesigned to include Dual Spec. It was a feature they built the expansion around. They had to create an environment where Dual spec flourished and BC does not do that. A shadow priest will never be able to CC snare and slow like a mage in shattered halls, DS or not. However a Shadow priest can be 100% interchangeable with a mage as they designed it that the degree of CC and kiting used was non existent so you’d take that shadow priest if they were available over trying to find a mage thanks to Dual spec. And if they didn’t need that shadow priest they’d just go heals on the fly to accommodate the group.
We have an entire history of the impact it had on the game… we have it still affecting the game today. Wrath was different because of Dual Spec, the game was molded with Dual spec in mind it was different. Just as it is now molded by being whatever whenever. The game is designed with it in mind now.
And again with gusto! “BRING THE PLAYER NOT THE CLASS!!” Ghostcrawler on his very design philosophy which involved Dual Spec.
Unsupported claims without any rational argument to support the claims. I can do that to. I don’t because I’m not a brain dead moron but I’ll show you how you do it.
Raids, Dungeons, Skills, Classes, Encounters, didn’t need to be redesigned to include Dual Spec.
The didn’t create an environment
a Shadow priest isn’t 100% interchangeable with a mage as they designed them with different skills and abilities.
Check and mate, here’s my hunter from classic to tbc classic, still wearing some naxx gear because rnjesus hates me on beastlord and other drops. Didn’t pvp much on this specific toon in classic, mostly did casual AV but the long ques at tje time kept me from even trying to go into a deep pvp dive due to my RL not letting me have much time outside of my days off.
Currently don’t get to play much right now because of mandatory overtime at my work which is also taking away a lot of my days off.
But hay, I’m still having fun in tbc classic when I can play.
I use this toon for forum discussions so it all stays on one notification icon.
Do you know why they disappear? They quit. The game they wanted was altered, so they left.
Admitting they were wrong? Wrong about what? That they didn’t want the game changed?
So you claim it would be easy to introduce dual spec. There’s another person here who also claims to work in programming that claims it would be very difficult. He suggested simply changing the respec cost as that would be easy to do instead of adding dual spec as it would be too hard. i can’t debate that with either of you and I don’t simply pick one of two opposing views based on unverifiable claims to authority. If it’s easy as you claim then let’s just do it
So? Bad decisions don’t justify more bad decisions. Who said we were all ok with them?
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