If you want to charge people who are already struggling to buy a mount go ahead. As I said I’m not going to. I’m also not going to get into a debate on morality in a video game. Do what ever you want.
You fail to understand how Dual Spec even works, in order to obtain it, you need to spend gold, just like how you need to spend gold for learning to use a mount, might as well remove mounts by your logic because it makes it to convent to travel, and removes the cost to pay for flight paths.
I know it cost gold to get.
I’m sure that will be the next thing to complain about once you get dual spec in wotlk classic. “It costs too much”…
If it isn’t the cost then what is it? The fact that you have to go to a trainer to click the buttons?
These people are having trouble with 900 gold, and 1000 gold is ok?
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I don’t have to imagine. Dual spec is actually worse. It’s such a garbage anti-feature it isn’t even funny, and people are asking for it unironically.
Anyway… your guild is awesome, so I’ll reconsider my stance on dual spec, and at least say, “I think there could be better solutions, but we would really want to have a look defining the problems we are aiming to solve in precise detail, how dual spec might solve them, and perhaps how we might be able to go about measuring the effectiveness versus other possible solutions. We could add to that potential (e.g. known) negative effects/impacts and allot for unknown negative impacts, as well.”
I don’t see that and I haven’t seen you elaborate on that opinion. All I’ve seen is you suggesting lower respec fees is a better solution
You could do that and we can respond. For example someone claimed it would “create a new problem of clueless DPS masquerading as tanks just to get into groups faster.” I’ll admit that’s true. Likely many of those dual speccing to tank will be inexperienced and unskilled at tanking. All I can say is I think most of the people who can’t find a tank at all, good or bad, and aren’t able to do a dungeon run would rather struggle along with an inexperienced tank and do the dungeon.
It just simply isn’t very controversial. People don’t seem to want to engage in reasonable discussion, so there are tons of replies to controversial topics like, ‘Please add Retail Feature X to Classic,’ and not so many on topics like:
Personally, I am not opposed to having more people doing content who are still learning content. While I don’t always feel like doing particular content with people who are completely new, I sometimes do.
Sure. But, I don’t agree that dual-spec is a reasonable “solution” to not being able to find a tank.
At least not any more reasonable than rolling a tank.
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I don’t see where you’re explaining why or even claiming that " Dual spec is actually worse. It’s such a garbage anti-feature it isn’t even funny." Perhaps I’m missing the point but what I got out of reading your posts is that dual spec only solves the problems for some people while lower respec fees solves the problem for more if not all of the players. I didn’t reply in your thread because the zeitgeist is for dual spec. The best chance for change is to align with those who closest desire what you want. Just as I argued for classic years ago even though I wanted the trilogy and vanilla was the worst of the 3 imo. I didn’t say that, I just joined the flow that was most likely to get me BC and Wrath.
People play what they want to play. Blizzard, and the rest of us, have to work within that frame work. Suggesting that more people just go out and play something they’d rather not is unrealistic. But giving people options to play dps while questing and framing while having a tank or healing spec for dungeons will increase the number of tanks and healers
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I see what you mean. I suppose I didn’t focus on that, and I usually try to avoid such extreme (or hyperbolic) wording, but I am really not fan of dual spec, and I did have some here.
Anyway:
Once you introduce dual spec, there is no need to accept that a healing capable class doesn’t have a healing spec and set, or a tank capable class having a tank capable spec and set, nor either have a DPS capable spec or set.
It might not be everybody that is affected by this, but for players who have characters for single-role responsibilities, this can cause stress, and does somewhat fundamentally change the nature of what they are doing.
In a hard-core sort of raid group, it might be expected that a character performing a certain role in a certain spec will maintain multiple raid sets and be willing to respec. Dual spec seems to have made that much more “the norm,” (anecdotally of course, as I don’t have data to back up that statement).
Some may argue that having dual spec may lead to people no longer reaching out to form groups, like a healer looking for a warrior and maybe a DPS for drop run farming, instead may be more inclined to just swap specs and do some solo farming, with similar behavior gradually resulting in more of a single-player feel than an MMO feel…
Note that this is assuming that deterring players from respecc’ing is unintended game design. If that is the case, then yeah… lowering respecc’ing fees does indeed seem to resolve the issue of being deterred from respecc’ing by high fees, while being incredibly easy (code wise) to implement compared to dual spec, and providing a much more equal access solution for all classes.
The changes to retail sort of show that this is where this change progresses, in gear that changes stats, and the ability to respec and retalent without incurring fees. Of course, it is a retail feature.
Possibly, but dual spec seems to miss the mark in so many ways that it would be unfortunate, in my opinion, if this change which is more complicated to make, requires more effort, and provides less benefit, while also causing issues (at least for some) is implemented.
Of course, I could be missing some things, and my personal perspective isn’t exactly an objective view of “the data.” (I don’t have any special access to any data, and the only thing that would really surprise me if I did was if I wasn’t surprised by what it showed!).
Will it? It might, but it might not. Dumbing down tanking also seems to increase the number of tanks and healers, or at least it seems that way in Retail, but that could also be because it has removed a lot of players from the playerbase by catering to people who are asking for changes.
EDIT:
Also found this:
Which supports that during the time, deterring respecs was intentional design, and thus dual spec would go against that design.
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It was objectively bad design, which is why they fixed it.
Since we have the power of foresight we can take that fix and apply to tbc. Especially since blizzard said they are open to changes.
Frankly I never understood that argument. Or similar arguments about for example drums in BC. It’s the save me from my guild leader because I have no backbone to do it myself argument. There are always less hardcore guilds looking for raiders. I’d simply quit and join one. I’d never join a hard core guild because I know it’s not my play style but I did quit a guild when I didn’t like their loot distribution. When I raided I maxed my spec for healing. But I’d just quit the guild if they demanded I min/max a second spec for them.
Subjective, unless you have some way of showing objectivity. It seems like you are just using this term hyperbolically, in the same way that lead the word literally came to actually mean figuratively in common parlance.
I mean, if we take that stance, then…
Of course that’s if we take that stance, which is literally and objectively against the intended design.
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I mean, I don’t know about the solution of 50s respec. But it is better than it is now.
I’m fine with dual spec. This should absolutely be in the game.
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It’s also changing the bar for what is normal in PuGs.
Yes, but what seems to tend to happen is that those who are average tend to look at those who are extraordinary and copy some of the things. Note, I am not saying that this is a good thing, but it does seem to be a common strategy.
That might not be so simple if the bar has changed for an average PuG group, you are not playing on scheduled raid teams across all of your alts.
Would you also quit the PuG normal instance group, if that was the lowest bar available? It might not be, but dual spec lowers the bar for expecting multiple specs for some classes much more than it does for others… it’s an unequal change that impacts some greatly.
EDIT:
I suppose it’s just frustrating to think that a solution that requires ZERO CODING, ZERO DESIGN, and simply changing configuration settings (maybe 1 single setting, or maybe 1 per trainer, depending on how it was developed), that makes it easy for every spec to respec without having to pay large gold fees is being completely overlooked… while a relatively complicated change that rather than giving options, lopsidedly helps DPS play a PVP and PVE spec, while potentially adversely affecting some is being advocated for.
So for example, if I want to play my warrior in PVP and PVE content, then I can have a PVP DPS spec, and a PVE tank spec. This doesn’t allow me to do particularly good DPS in PVE, to play with friends. I’d still have to respec to do that.
This is exacerbated on a Paladin, where I might want to DPS, Heal, or Tank in PVE settings, and DPS or Heal in PVP settings (or maybe tank as a flag carrier, but probably not)… still, it’s saying, “I don’t like being locked into a spec. Lock me into 2 specs instead.” Rather than, “I don’t like being locked into a spec. Unchain me.”
At least, from my perspective.
Maybe, I don’t understand people very well or why they do the things they do. The whole idea seems ridiculous to me and the only reason I can imagine someone doing it is that some people want to be in a top 10 world first guild. There are costs to that and if you don’t want to pay them then join a lower tier guild. I just can’t see the majority of the server doing it. I pugged a lot in Wrath and never did I see people expecting the dps druid or warrior etc. to tank if the tank left. Occasionally one did switch to a tanking spec to finish the run but no one expected or demanded it.
You realize you can’t seal twist every global and if you don’t get proc it’s actually a dps loss right if your seal twisting every global your doing it wrong
That’s cool. Then after the change is made, you can still choose not to have dual spec, it’s an option to have.
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How much? I ran every heroic everyday for quite a while. My main (warrior) was in a top-5 server guild (not a particularly amazing guild with regards to stats, but some really great people, imo). I also had max-level Druid and DK tanks, and ran all current/relevant raid content every week, on all characters, running PuGs mostly on my Druid and DK.
Dual spec basically doubled my gear responsibility and expenses.
EDIT: I actually had 2 druids and 2 DKS at max level, but didn’t maintain 1 of each, which were on different servers, much after completing initial raids and gearing.
I should have said I pugged a lot of dungeons. I raided on my holy priest, at a time when many claimed disc was the better healing spec. I tried it, didn’t like it, and found a guild that was happy to have a holy priest. For a brief time I tried to raid on my hunter in the guild’s second raid team but found I didn’t have the time or want to raid with two characters. I have played a lot of hours but I’ve never been a hard core player.
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I suspect this is true for a lot of us! I think it’s one of the majorities. 