go check out xtremetop100 and dkpminus
regardless, warmane’s bc server is not far from blizzlike, is the most popular BC server when i was keeping track 2011-2019, and still implemented dual spec explicitly as a QoL change. i consider it evidence it’s a QoL change
And that’s where you’ll get to experience it again.
you might want to fix your decaying game now
Well I think the counterpoint being made is that there isn’t really any good evidence to believe that Blizzard is in the business of making changes purely for QOL.
Every change they’ve made has had a purpose that went beyond pure QOL.
If they were going to add dual spec, it would have to be for reasons well beyond just QOL. There would have to be a need for it respective to keeping the game healthy.
Now, your argument is that the game is not healthy and thus needs dual spec to fix said unhealthiness.
Our counter argument to that has been that dual spec will not fix anything that WoW is currently suffering to. It’s a distraction.
WoW’s problems are not chiefly that TBCC does not have dual spec, and it never has been.
I also think it’s pretty flawed to conflate the design ethics of a pserver team with that of where the direction that TBCC should go (the actual official Blizzard devs).
Especially when I can simply weaponize this logic by saying that since Blizzard servers are the most played classic-style servers, even though it costs people money, that no dual spec must be a positive choice for them.
Blizzard servers with no dual spec = more players.
Pservers with dual spec = less players than Blizzard servers.
Therefore, no dual spec = more players/profit?
…why? That blizzard did things beyond QoL doesn’t mean dual spec needs a reason beyond QoL to be implemented
Also, QoL is identical to the purpose of keeping the game healthy.
Our counter argument to that has been that dual spec will not fix anything that WoW is currently suffering to. It’s a distraction.
It’s necessary but not sufficient to solve issues related to how sparse the game is outside of tempest keep, heroics, and raids. It’s necessary for leveling players to more flexibly make dungeon groups and for mains to jump into PvP.
WoW’s problems are not chiefly that TBCC does not have dual spec, and it never has been.
I don’t think that was ever the argument.
I also think it’s pretty flawed to conflate the design ethics of a pserver team with that of where the direction that TBCC should go (the actual official Blizzard devs).
Nobody conflated such things. I did not state Blizzard should do everything a private server team would. However, it is worth noting that the most popular server created by a third party trying to keep it true to its roots while polishing over its rough edges added dual spec as an explicit QoL feature.
Especially when I can simply weaponize this logic by saying that since Blizzard servers are the most played classic-style servers, even though it costs people money, that no dual spec must be a positive choice for them.
You cannot use the popularity of a Blizzard server to infer anything about dual spec and its effect on players, you are only weaponizing your ability to delude.
Because dual spec is a very well known and understand mechanic, we know how it works.
Yep noone ever offers any reasons …
Oh wait, so now we do offer reasons but you think they’re vague?
Why pretend people haven’t offered reasons when you can easily refute the ones that have been given?
My conjecture, because the reasons aren’t as vague and easy to refute as you have suggested, and therefore it’s easier to continually promote the idea that no reasons have been given - pure sophistry. Reasons have been given and you simply try to gaslight that fact.
Blizzard said prior to Classic’s release that they’d keep the servers running even if they are nearly empty because the idea to them was to have the experience open for anyone to check out should they want to experience old versions of WoW.
This, to me, says that increasing it’s player count (while always a bonus) is not some kind of goal that they are actually willing to betray original TBC design to achieve.
It’s neither necessary, nor sufficient to fix any of what you just said.
It saves people gold. That’s all it does.
I’ll spare you the giant quote-mountain, but yeah, it has been argued.
That’s the point.
I was saying that the popularity of a private server cannot be used to determine the value of dual spec.
It’s like you almost get it but still let it miss you by a hair.
Because the following is both indicative and the bulk of his argumentative prowess:
…cue the analogy you glossed over about unsubstantiated extrapolation.
/headdesk
“I know I have no actual justification that I’m right, but I’m right…”
I mean… they’ve already waffled on group queues for BGs and they added a new service as well and we’re barely into P2.
Not at all if literally any of the other changes are something to go by. The Feral DPS bugfix was argued to death and back and all we got was “HERE’S HOW IT CHANGES” and that was that. No precursor, no warning, nothing.
WoW Classic is getting an entire new server type that got all of… what a week?.. worth of warning before appearing on a PTR ready to go.
I think communication is at an all time low for Blizzard so if we even get an announcement at all, it will be just before we get it or see it on the PTR.
Yeah OK Is my rebuttal to that would be do you know how many private servers get shut down And before you can blink an eye 2 more are up.
It depends on the server I’ve seen a lot of them Just be pvp I’ve seen a lot of them Is concentrate on more of progression it depends on the server.
But honestly I mean Is the most well known one I know of Is at least what I should say the most well known one in English.
Would be endless Is that’s the most well known one at the very least But for a short answer to your question.
They pop up and go away so fast because the rose game shut down by blizzard Is the only one I actually know that is well known and actually has not gotten shut down yet for some unknown reason tbc Specifically mind you
Would be endless I know there’s been a ton more and I’ve heard loss of them had Dual speck Some didn’t.
But the reason why the servers got shut down was not because they had that feature If anything mostly time it has to do with the shop.
My justification is all of Blizzard’s words and actions thus far since Classic launch. Pretty substantial set of data to glean from there.
Just because you take something different from it (and are likely wrong) doesn’t mean I have nothing.
Which has been an ever increasing divergence from the base games of Vanilla and TBC… so I have no idea what you’re going on about.
“Ever increasing”?
I disagree with you.
They made targeted, surgical changes.
There’s no momentum or downhill roll going on here that I (and others) perceive that could lead to dual spec.
Really this just sounds like you’ve misinterpreted Blizzard’s actions, or rather, you have your own personal interpretation that leads you think think it’s “50/50”.
It’s not a toss-up to me. Blizzard has made pretty clear dual spec won’t be in with their actions and words.
I’d even bet on it.
Put it this way, if they add dual spec, I’ll give you the gold to unlock it before I cancel my sub.
I’ve asked you multiple times to explain in detail exactly what the issue with adding dual spec to TBC is and you have roundly refused simply falling back on “It’s bad mkay.”
Given that dual spec is a very well understood mechanic as is TBC if there was an actually problem you should be able to lay it out clearly. If blizzard suddenly announced some completely new way of handling specs the fear that it might not work as intended would be reasonable but dual spec is not some wild unknown.
CTRL + V again.
…which means we got more and more changes. /boggle
Whether they’re large and sweeping or “targeted, surgical” changes means little. WoW Classic saw very few changes. TBCC has already seen more changes in the FIRST PHASE than all of WoW Classic got in the entirety of its lifetime…
We even saw more and more changes happen towards the END of Classic than we did at the beginning, and TBCC has ramped that up further.
Bias is a helluva drug.
So once again you can’t actually provide a real reason beyond saying it wasn’t in TBC originally.
Oh and still not understanding why respec costs have never been an effective gold sink.
It depends on the feature that we’re talking about I’m not suggesting they put any of those things in the shop.
nor is anyone else in this form as far as the private server example yeah Is obviously depending on who you are a paid a win element is going to be a little bit more enticing.
Now granted it’s not to me Depending on how the game is run obviously What I’m saying is bringing an equality of life change.
not a paid of wind feature there’s a very big difference But the point is this dual spack equality of life not a core game design change.
And no not the quality of like lfd,lfr There are very big differences between them It’s a feature that would be overall better for the game.
And that should be the question asked not if it’s to the core of original not was it back there in the day is this good for the game will it make the player experience better.
If the answer is a little bit of both Is what are the pros and where the cons what’s the worst thing that could happen if this got put in.
If there is more good than bad Then yes If not the no plain and simple
Real to me, not real to you.
The thing is you don’t like the reasons given and you don’t think they work. Good for you, address that rather than perpetually claim no reasons were given when it’s clear that they have.
Argue against the reasons given if you don’t like them. But don’t gaslight by:
Pretending that we never give reasons.
Additionally you ask for a level of detail that you haven’t been able to supply yourself. Surely, given that it’s your change request, you should at least match the level of evidence for your position as you are asking for from those who disagree with you? Even if we scrap the notion of onus of proof you should at least match the level of proof you ask for.
As it is you are saying “I want to remove a pylon from under the bridge and unless you can absolutely prove without any doubt that the bridge will fall I’m going ahead as there’s other bridges standing with less Pylons so I reckon she’ll be right”.
I’ve mentioned before the potential for increased class stacking on account of being able to switch specs and buffs/debuffs for various content. It’s a risk given the class design in TBC having more niches than in WoTLK. You’ve countered it is speculative - well duh. Yes it’s speculative, you are trying to ask me to prove something we have never had. TBCC has never had dual spec so all I can do is speculate.
What? Are you…OK?
How do any of those reasons translate to it not being like that in original TBC?
Removing a gold sink is not something related to “original TBC”.
Making content easier is not something related to “original TBC”.
Deadening the world is not related to “original TBC”.
You can’t just say opposition of any change is #nochanges. How do you not see how grossly incompetent of a narrative that is?
I don’t have to provide theoretical reason why dual spec would be good, it’s a very well known and understood mechanics, all we have to do is see how it’s actually worked in practice.
You are the one making theoretical claim which you refuse to actually explain.
Yeah, it got removed in favor of something better.
Why don’t you want that?