Dual Spec.. please?

[Kumasama-westfall]

@Zipzo-atiesh

So you’re not going to tell me where the lie is?

@Kumasama-westfall

when you cherry-pick quotes from someone and posit them as supporting your opinion

Goldfish memory.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Stayfrostey-westfall

So you think dual spec shouldn’t be added because it wasn’t in original tbc?

I’m ok with changes.

Not all of them.

TBCC promised #somechanges.

Not #allchanges.

Dual spec shouldn’t be one of those changes.

[Kumasama-westfall]

@Stayfrostey-westfall

So you think dual spec shouldn’t be added because it wasn’t in original tbc?

That’s the reason he always gives to support why it shouldn’t be added.

He contradicts himself on this constantly.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

This is you saying a thing that I do (which I disagree with, beside the point), but you’re still not showing me where, in this instance, the lie is.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Stayfrostey-westfall

So you think dual spec shouldn’t be added because it wasn’t in original tbc? Some people would say that you want #no changes.

Who cares what they think? You’ll set them straight and then they just keep hammering away with no changes. /shrug

@Stayfrostey-westfall

Any other reasons that it shouldn’t be added other than “dual spec doesn’t belong in this expansion”?

Yes, TBCC doesnt need dual specs.

[Etc-heartseeker]

@Stayfrostey-westfall

So you think dual spec shouldn’t be added because it wasn’t in original tbc? Some people would say that you want #no changes.

You’re welcome to call this position #nochanges if it helps you organize our arguments, but understand that your giving it this label doesn’t allow you to use Blizzard’s quotes to debunk this position when their use of #nochanges refers to a different idea.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Kumasama-westfall

That’s the reason he always gives to support why it shouldn’t be added.

We’ve given plenty of other reasons un-associated with “that’s how things were”.

So does this mean you are a liar?

Can I call you a liar now?

Over and over?

[Kumasama-westfall]

@Zipzo-atiesh

but you’re still not showing me where, in this instance, the lie is.

I don’t really care if you don’t see where spreading misinformation by cherry-picking quotes from previous devs is lying. Other people reading this thread know it is. I don’t call you a liar to prove to you that you a liar. I do it because I want other people reading this thread to be aware of it.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Kumasama-westfall

I don’t call you a liar to prove to you that you a liar. I do it because I want other people reading this thread to be aware of it.

But you are lying in this thread, clear for everyone to see.

By your logic I can repeatedly call you a liar and it is true, right?

[Kumasama-westfall]

@Zipzo-atiesh

By your logic I can repeatedly call you a liar and it is true, right?

You’ve called me a lot of other things in the past, including pathetic and hopeless. Not really phased by what you call me, to be honest since it doesn’t really amount to anything since you have nothing but lies.

Again, my logic is that by cherry-picking quotes out of context from previous devs you are essentially spreading misinformation which is essentially lying. That’s my logic. That’s why I call you a liar.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

I mean, you are very clearly lying blatantly all over the place. I’m not the only one who thinks so. Law of numbers here suggests you might…you know…be lying.

[Kumasama-westfall]

Oh dear, the liar threatened to call me a liar! What am I gonna do?!

[Etc-heartseeker]

Zipzo’s not a liar though. He’s wrong from time to time, as we all are.

Trying to distribute any idea that Zipzo is a liar is in fact spreading misinformation. Whether it’s intentional or malicious, I don’t know. But it seems to be to be intentional and malicious.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Kumasama-westfall

You’ve called me a lot of other things in the past, including pathetic and hopeless.

Proof Zipzo is not a liar.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

lol haha im glad corpseknife has returned

[Stayfrostey-westfall]

@Zipzo-atiesh

I’m ok with changes.

Not all of them.

TBCC promised #somechanges.

Not #allchanges.

Dual spec shouldn’t be one of those changes.

I respectfully disagree and think it should be one of those changes. Arenas were added in tbc and dual spec was implemented to help players swap between pve and pvp more easily. Therefore it makes sense to me to add dual spec into TBC.

Are there any other specific reasons you think it shouldn’t be added. I am having a hard time seeing what the negatives are outside of the sweatiest guilds asking their raiders to prepare to raid as 2 specs every week.

[Kumasama-westfall]

@Etc-heartseeker

Zipzo’s not a liar though. He’s wrong from time to time, as we all are.

Trying to distribute any idea that Zipzo is a liar is in fact spreading misinformation. Whether it’s intentional or malicious, I don’t know. But it seems to be to be intentional and malicious.

Well, your speech was heartfelt and has moved my own heart!

I’m definitely changing my opinion now!

[Makkux-deviate-delight]

All this arguing over a GC quote that he later admitted was in error in another quote provided by Stayfrostey is just silly. If GC is the be all end all, again here are his words:

@Stayfrostey-westfall

“Nethaera : Why are we allowing players to dual spec after all this time?
Ghostcrawler : We really felt like this was a great way to increase the flexibility available to players and encourage them to take part in more aspects of the game. To use just one example, some players like to participate in both raids and Arenas, which is awesome behavior that we want to promote. But, there are some talents which are more useful in one part of the game than another. Currently, players have to pay respec costs and go through the process of setting up the desired talent spec and action bars whenever they switch.

The new system makes this a much more logical process, saving on time and cost and allowing players to easily move from one aspect of the game to another.”

Blizz acknowledges that the old no dual spec system was an issue for pvp players who swapped between content regularly.

[Stayfrostey-westfall]

@Etc-heartseeker

You’re welcome to call this position #nochanges if it helps you organize our arguments,

If your sole argument against no dual spec is it wasn’t in original tbc, then it is completely accurate to summarize the argument as “no changes”.

If given specific, logical reasons that a person feels dual spec should not be added then I wouldn’t describe the argument as #no changes.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Etc-heartseeker

But it seems to be to be intentional and malicious.

This is really my problem with Kuma.

He has no desire to improve the discourse. He’s purely here as a chaotic evil.

Call everyone liars in response to every single point made. Constantly misquote, cherry-pick, and take the conversation on to tangents that have no meaningful purpose.

Like it’s crystal clear what his intentions are here, he has absolutely no desire to actually discuss the topic.

@Stayfrostey-westfall

I respectfully disagree and think it should be one of those changes. Arenas were added in tbc and dual spec was implemented to help players swap between pve and pvp more easily. Therefore it makes sense to me to add dual spec into TBC.

The solution to this is for those players to farm the gold to respec. That is the in-game solution that players are supposed to utilize to overcome this obstacle.

I would also argue that dailies make this process quite painless.

Dual spec, at this point, becomes an arbitrary feature that is changing thing for the sake of change, and a change simply for the sake of change doesn’t make sense in scenario where Blizzard has explicitly promised that all changes made are being carefully thought so that it doesn’t hurt the legitimacy of the products purpose, to be a “faithful recreation” of original TBC (Blizzard’s words, not mine).

@Stayfrostey-westfall

Are there any other specific reasons you think it shouldn’t be added. I am having a hard time seeing what the negatives are outside of the sweatiest guilds asking their raiders to prepare to raid as 2 specs every week.

Sure. Many. I’ve, of course, posted them hundreds of times already but I’ll go ahead and do it again, but I’ll just copy:paste a post I did on reddit about it.

It introduces a variable to efficiency towards TBC content that never existed.

People can have two specs to approach raiding with, and the last thing we need is raiding to be more efficient in an expansion where content is dying several times easier/quicker than it used to. For example people can have trash clearing specs, or tanks/healers can have DPS specs. It makes raiding easier than it already is. People can of course respec now for the same result but nobody does that because of the gold/time obstacle and is forced to reconcile with the roles that everybody has already chosen a vast majority of the time.

It relieves TBC of one of it’s only effective gold sinks in an environment where, post-dailies, gold economy is massively inflated compared to original TBC, and dual spec only makes it even worse. People already went in to TBC with hundreds of thousands of gold more than they did originally, removing dual spec simply destroys one of the last meaningful ways to peck away at those gold stockpiles.

It actually removes a reason for people to be out in the world, further deadening the feel of the server.

If you’ve no need to farm, you’ve no need to log on for any other reason than raiding or arena/bg (which I suspect is pretty much why people want dual spec, so they can do this without ever needing to support that style of play with their own resources, dual spec is essentially the perfect raid logging tool).

None of these sound like “muh authentic experience” to me, but even that is still a valid reason. We were promised and marketed a faithful recreation of TBC, and dual spec does exactly the opposite of that. The whole reason classic exists is because people wanted to shed all the modern conveniences and “helpful additions” of modern wow to go back to the ways of old, which means that undoubtedly by playing classic, you lose some things you may have considered nice or convenient as the game progressed. You can’t just add all of those things back in, because then it’s no longer classic, it’s some mangled abomination fun-server of various features people like layered on top of the sandbox of TBC, and that’s not what we were advertised. This is something that everyone naturally understands about the lifespan of the game, which means there is no reason you should be expecting to get dual spec in TBC. It never existed then, and thus, you should not expect to have it now.

Take from that what you will.

@Makkux-deviate-delight

All this arguing over a GC quote that he later admitted was in error in another quote provided by Stayfrostey is just silly. If GC is the be all end all, again here are his words:

You’re missing the point.

Under this logic they should change everything in TBC to what it eventually became in retail.

At that point it is no longer a recreation of an older expansion.

The whole point is that features are not as refined. The older versions of stuff. That we’re missing stuff that got added later. That’s like, the whole idea.