Honestly I don’t think it is low. But I think the percentage of those passionate about it is.
Edit: I think the popularity is overblown on the forums though. If you asked most the answer would be “sure why not” but they wouldn’t fight on the point.
What I will say, is I don’t think popularity alone is a sufficient basis for change.
You know I don’t know if you have me blocked or no but I’m just gonna say it I’ve pointed this out to you beforehand
Yeah a lot of players don’t like to farm it’s like too far in fact I have never met a person that likes to farm gold and if something is more of a grind than they’re willing to do they’re just not going to play.
They’re going to do the content that they enjoy and not try anything else because they have to do a boring activity that they hate to get to something that they might find fun.
That’s one of my arguments for dual spec As far as yes you can’t please everything but of a feature can make more player want to play the game more.
Then I would say it’s a feature that should probably be in the game
We get aggressive because you mock You act like our argument has no weight no value whatsoever when it clearly does.
And were not so rose tented to look at tbc Is as this perfect game and we’ve seen the good that a feature can do that will change the game in our opinion at least for the overall better.
Is not to be mean but And this is a card I’m going to play here had it ever occurred to you that maybe it’s just the people that don’t go on the forms.
I talked to tons of people that want dual speck and I asked them how can you never post on the forms and the answers very simple.
Is well 2 reasons One because they don’t think people actually want to have a legitimate discussion on the matter.
Too they don’t think blizzard will actually listen or is then or care Those are the 2 main reasons I hear all the time.
Never had you blocked. I find your stuff pretty difficult to read if I’m honest so I don’t always address it. But when I spend the time to read it is interesting. Don’t often agree but I get where you’re coming from. I don’t really always have a reply though. You want the game to be one way and I want it another- neither wrong in my view but not exactly resolvable.
“I think that zone’s bosses do too much damage for the loot that drops.”
That is constructive criticism to improve the game.
“Please add dual spec because I am a bad player who can’t cope!”
That’s whining by entitled baddies.
See the difference?
Fair enough to be fair I do my best to word things The best way I can so people can read it I’m not a good speller.
That’s why I tried to spread things out Are you try to understand where you guys are coming from but the thing is.
From my perspective Speaking from someone that played this game 15 years Ago Just because I’m happy it’s back doesn’t mean I don’t want it to be the same way it was.
At least not 100% I mean I couldn’t understand people gained so defensive that we were asking for something like the automatic group finder.
But we’re not Because here’s the thing right This change is it for me If Dulce back got put in.
I think the game while not perfect Would be the best it could be I mean sure I could go off on a tangent and say there’s my wishlist but that’s just unreasonable.
As I said beforehand I always think what’s the worst thing that can happen with this change happening.
And it would be another thing if the game was in a good state but it’s not No matter how you want to slice it
PVP is in a very bad state And like it or not PVP and pve Are linked Now granted I could make an argument that I think that honor gears too expensive and that’s why nobody wants to try Jump in.
But when you also pile on the fact that you have to Respect and pay a 100 gold every single time and I’m terrible with names but the undead mage set up above.
Farming’s not fun Is especially on a tanker a healer it’s absolutely miserable And I don’t know Is how you’re able to get all those daily’s done in 10 minutes more power to you.
But that’s not your average person So that was my point I will try to argue points on a logical level I’m not going to go.
Down in a ground and Go on all this philosophy stuff I’m just not going to because at that point we’ve just gone off the actual argument.
But here’s the point right The game is not in a good state And whether you agree or disagree with dual spec.
It would shake things up Weather be good or bad it would shake things up And any bit of shake up right now would be a good thing.
Yeah but I mean again you’re making it sound like every single argument is that it’s the we want we want we want argument.
With no reason Or a logical argument behind it when that’s just not the case I mean I’ve made several arguments for it and made points.
But the thing is The thing I get told the most is nobody wants to read a book.
But if I make the post too short it doesn’t prove my point and people wanna poke in prod and say well you didn’t
Really make an argument So you know which is it?
Yes, of course that’s not the argument for dual spec, so it’s irrelevant.
It’s all good man - you make sense even if the spelling is off.
It’s probably more the amount of ideas - a lot to unpack with your comments - given I don’t always come at them from the same pov it can be a little big to wade through. I pick the bits I think are resolvable. I guess I have a similar issue with the amount of text ;p
At this point I am keen to sort of reset the discussion counter and see if there’s common ground. Maybe there isn’t. But I’d like to relaunch into this with a more respectful modus operandi. I don’t see a lot of value in the majority of the discussion so far - on both our respective sides.
I’m hoping people want to take this as an opportunity for mature discussion on this. An Amnesty.
I do agree with this - I think some of this is external - but some of it is due to the quality of what we’re being given. Bugs, slow release cycles, changes that undermine the games core mechanics - speaking of the arena points and rankings shakeup.
Some changes were good but Blizzard seems to be missing in action.
I think we fundamentally differ on the role of dual spec in this - you think it will shake things up and get people motivated again. I don’t. I think it will remove one more layer of personal investment from the game for a lot of players. Not because they enjoy paying for respecs but because they feel invested in what they have done so far. I know you probably won’t agree with or see this point but that’s my view.
Edit: At any rate - I think we’ll probably disagree. But I am comfortable we can be fine with each other and on other topics probably do agree.
I was rattled today when I went through posts I had ignored where I was being portrayed in a light that just isn’t me. Not just in this thread but in threads I don’t even post in. Zipso copped the same. I want us to be able to have robust argument and disagreements without taking it personally and I think you and I can - never thought otherwise. You’ve never been one to personally attack. And I’m actually not as brittle as I’m being portrayed.
Here’s the thing though when you say something like that is it really investment though I mean it would be an investment if it was still 2007.
Because people were still figuring it out but the reality is Is there’s 3 camps of people I think that play this game.
Is you have your person that’s never played World of Warcraft before Yes believe it or not there are people that this is the 1st version of World of Warcraft.
In fact in my Guild there are several Is to give you an idea I had to explain to a Warrior Why you have to get hit capped before expertise does anything for you.
This and was a off tank in kaera That did not learn all of his abilities at 70.
No not kidding You have people like you and me who I’m assuming you play the original I could be wrong but that’s my impression of you.
We know what’s going to happen we don’t know what’s going to happen or what changes blizzard are going to make but we know the song in dance.
Or if we don’t know it we know where to find it Is sea for me I don’t play this game for nostalgia.
I guess I can kind of understand from the perspective of a player that it takes away from the investment from estimate from the aspect of a 2007 player.
But see for me when I think about it I want to be able to play around And when you get dual spec you have so much more freedom even if it’s a separate spec.
And again the other thing is If people Is aren’t logging in the game already they’re not gonna log in the game just a farm gold to yield a respect.
You’re either one already doing that because you’re that hard core of a player or 2 you’re going to stick with the space that you know that you play with.
And you’re just going to do that activity that you don’t like as lease as possible I mean me I would like to try PVP just to try it because it does look like it could be some fun.
I don’t know if you’ve ever tried PVP Is a Pratt palley But let me tell you it’s miserable
This question is just as bad On the same end I maintain for my Guild in kaera.
And I can only really raid on Is the weekends because of my work schedule I do have a Guild but were on different time zones.
If I’m being honest I would be a lot happier if I did not have to PVP for
My best and slot weapon but it’s either I have to try and do that or I have to fight Is every single mage in warlock for the sort off of gruel.
And the reality is the grind for that gear is bad enough and then you put on top of the fact I am a prop palli
I can’t really make money with my profession because I’m JC Because the Guild needed a jewel crafter.
And it’s the profession I want to roll and unfortunately all the good patterns are all world drops so yeah.
So that’s where I kind of set with stuff doing dailies as an absolute nightmare too And yes I can try in my nodes bit’s food’s butt when you don’t have an empty fire that takes a long time.
So yeah I want duels back so I can have a farming speck so I can do that stuff Because the reality is.
Tanks and healers are in shortage and I can see why because the way the game is built you need to have a farming space.
But fun is subjective I will agree most people though don’t really like to farm when they’re in a healing speck or a tank speck.
And yes there is the argument well you can just round up a bunch of stuff and like yeah that doesn’t actually work that well depending on the area you’re in.
Is a lot of stuff is a lot more spread out than people realize on top of that you’re to realize your dealing with spawn rates and competition too.
Yes sure I can round stuff up but it doesn’t really matter if I don’t do DPS now doesn’t As far as an investment I mean is it really an investment.
I mean as a prop palli I look at any other pallion I don’t get upset and say well hes so much different from me it’s like well no hes 1 of 2
He’s either 49/12 or 40/21 I mean even some classes I don’t play I could just look at the talent trees and give an estimate.
I mean you don’t have to be a genius to look at the Worlock tree and destruction &c ha 20% damage multiplier It’s on another 15% damage multiplier that doesn’t look broken at all.
You know what I mean And that’s another thing like sunglasses dual speck is going to do something for other classes it’s not even going to matter.
Everyone knows what the Max damage speck is going to be for a warlock And you know the other specs aren’t going to do as much damage so if you’re really willing to push for that damage.
And all of the worlds utility doesn’t come from the talents it comes from the class itself you know so again.
I’m just saying seed of corruption Isn’t a talent you know.
Neither is curse of tongues You see what I’m getting At here OK yeah you’ve got curse of exhaustion.
But again you get the idea I’m just saying it’s not this massive huge decision I really take a huge amount of meaning in.
And quite frankly I never did If anything I just remember being frustrated because it’s like I want to try this I want to try that.
It’s like Somebody giving you a coloring book and saying OK you can only color one page at a time.
And only with 3 colors Well that kind of takes the fun out of it doesn’t it Anyway I’m not gonna ramble here.
I just kind of want to give you a little bit more of my perspective on it.
That’s fair. Read a bit - can’t say I agree but I see where you’re coming from. You think things are different enough now that the same rules don’t apply. I sort of agree with that - in some cases. Not this case.
I’ll need to read your post more thoroughly though to give it a sensible reply and I may not - it may just be well that’s your view and mines different. It depends, I need to read it fully to know where I sit with it. But I appreciate that you’ve explained it.
Everyone else: Has honest discussion
Riger: Engages in personal attacks
Everyone else: Continues honest discussion
Riger: “We all need to agree not to engage in personal attacks anymore.”
Everyone else: ???
Oh wow. You haven’t got it in you do you. You can’t have civil discussion? You’re actually the one I was talking about - I blocked you months ago. I back tracked over it today thinking I may have been harsh (I unblocked all and went over their stuff) only to see you actively trash talking me even in threads I wasn’t in. Pretty damn creepy. What’s your bag?
Basically stalking me telling people behind my back (you knew that you were blocked) that I’m dishonest and inconsistent and arrogant yadda yadda. Basically stalking me. It’s part of what flipped me today was realising you and some others were full trash talking me for months without me knowing it. You’re weird dude. Creepy weird.
You were serving it to Zipzo too. Creepy af.
You’re welcome As I said please understand something And I’ve said this before I don’t want changes for the sake of changes.
But I will say the same thing I don’t want something to stay broken Just because it was broken back in the day.
You know a shiny car with a squeaky wheel If you put a new tire on it it’s still a squeaky wheel you know.
You need oil for it And I did try to make my points clear and not try to write a book it’s just hard when I’m making arguments.
And for the record I did try to think about those things and take that into account But again overall.
If the game was in a good state I wouldn’t be pushing as hard but the reality is it’s not And like I said
In fact for the record it’s the same reason I think arena season one gear should be available for honor however.
One thing in a time And As I said if I can get dual speck in I think I can be happy with that.
Okay This is a really big thread and I can’t go reread every single comment And you’re on my side of this argument.
Which I do appreciate however It’s not unheard of Sometimes when a debate gets heated people can make mistakes.
I mean people make fun of my spelling all the time and I’ll respond but I always do my best not to let it get to this well
I’m just gonna call it what it is political childish Nesh where all were doing is bashing when another in the point of the argument gets lost.
If you’re only trying to point out flaws in his arguments that’s fine but I’m just saying let’s let’s just try and be several.
Again I haven’t read every single post hes made nor have Arizona post you’ve made cause quite honestly even I kind of got lost.
Like it or not there’s over 4000 comments on this so it’s really hard to keep track as their own points.
I’m just saying We both want dual speck yes There are people that don’t Are some of the reasons opinionated yes.
On both sides Because the reality is any argument we can make for There’s another site.
Now we may not agree and we don’t Alice I don’t however that doesn’t mean I think we should go to making fun of one another.
Graduate I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing I’m just saying let’s just try to focus on the argument.
That’s all
Are you asking me or telling me? Probably rhetorical but whatever the case is people have indeed claimed DS for TBCC are 100% necessary - cuz the game is gonna die next week if we don’t (sssslliperry sssslant). “No one”, lol.
Then you have the people who tell you with their left hand that they know and understand dual specs are basically optional fluff that doesnt do anything to make TBC a better game while their right hand continues to spew out sophist arguments in their favor - which just means they really do think theyre necessary and think they can conceal their contradiction by going into full blown denial about it like people are as dumb as they are and cant see it for what it is.
But if we can both agree that dual specs are not necessary then we can both say they 100% dont need to be added to TBCC and we can just leave it alone - for some reason I dont think you believe that.
I hope I never have - it’s not the kind of thing I think I like to judge people on - superficial. If I have let me know - I apologise.
No - I’m not on your side of the argument but I am trying to understand it and contend with it. I am willing to change my mind but I haven’t. I’ll weigh up your view with others - and of course with my own.
I do think you have given an honest view and I respect that even if I disagree.
Is that really a thing like people literally going and telling stuff about other people behind their back just because.
They don’t agree Man when do the wow Forms become Twitter Just a clarify don’t Let one person set the tone for every single person that wants dual spec.
As you say I’m a reasonable person I will make arguments yes but again I always try my best to be civil.
And give points heads the same reason I’m putting comments on the whole classic fresh.
At the end of the day We all want this game to be the best it can be yes we can both agree that we’re not happy the wave retail went.
For the record I wasn’t However that doesn’t mean that I think every single thing that was putting retail was bad.
Nor do I agree with people saying go back to retail any changes that we suggest Because the thing is.
Is whether people want to accommodate or not The whole gaming philosophy behind World of Warcraft.
It’s not as different in retail to TBC as you think it’s just a little picture is all pictured different.
For example Is meaningful choice One of the arguments I hear a lot against dual respect is it takes away from meaningful choice.
Now yes this does come down to what you consider a meaningful choice but I’ve never considered talents I mean we’ll choice because it’s just a gold tag to hit.
When I think of a meaninful choice it has to actually impact you Meaning The Choice isn’t going to be just oh well I can just get this gold that I can farm easily.
It’s annoying but game 50 gold isn’t the hardest thing in the world but most people just won’t do it but let’s take something from retail.
Legion And your 1st artifact weapon a lot of people forget this but the 1st art of act weapon you were stuck with that 1 art effect weapon for a while.
I think it was the 1st 4 weeks And obviously we didn’t have the accelerated artifact power at the beginning so that was a grind.
The only difference was instead of farming for gold we were farming for artifact power Technically I guess you could make the argument that you can use gold for a lot more things.
Is like by power However at least with artifact power you can buy that from another person.
However like it or not that was a meaningful choice because well one waste because while 1 you couldn’t really reset it and you had to farm all that artified power over again.
And at the start you didn’t have the speed up so it was literally like re leveling a knis 3 leveling another character.
So there’s your meaningful choice there that weapon choice really meant something then.
Your azarette armor respecting Every single time you respect your aspirates which were really important.
To your character’s power It doubled every single time and you couldn’t use the same same traits for PVE as PVP.
So Is technically less mean because it is like respecting however Imagine if respecting didn’t cap at 50 cold your paying now a 1000 gold for a respect.
And the most recent one You may not play retail but it’s impossible to even me a round roll of warcraft and not hear about covenants and gifis outcovenance in condolent energy.
Is sense shadow ends Beta everyone was saying this is gonna be terrible we don’t want this and the argument that they made.
Well we can’t make switching governments to easy or an arcandwidth energy because then there’s no consequences that choice are so meaning in that choice.
Again meaningful choice But the problem is when you start to put in meaningful choices they have to have impact and because the way the game is now
A game like World of Warcraft just isn’t set up to support meaningful children is the port mean for choice.
Is not on the scale that it really matters and the proof is in the pudding How many months has people been saying how much they hate conduit energy and the way covenants are.
And just now in the patch they’re switching that I mean you see what I’m getting out there here.