Yes it is.
Your being vague isn’t a matter of opinion. If you’re having to rely upon “Everyone knows what I mean when I just sorta point in the general direction of Retail!!” then you’re being objectively evasive and vague.
…so you have no idea how MoP-onward trees work and think going watered-down versions of two trees was meaningful when 95% of the talents are just passives? Neat!
In Retail, you often get the same passives between specs if it makes sense to have those passives. Things like inflated Critical Strike chance, bonus damage on Critical Strikes, etc, are common shared passives between specs like Arms and Fury that Protection simply doesn’t need. What you’re mewling about is not having a Deep Wounds mechanic which scales with a big 2-Handers when you want to swing two 1-Handers… which favor speedier hits as a theme.
This is silly. You’re being silly. You’re so fixated on not being able to do exactly what you want, that anything you actually are given a choice on, you outright dismiss as not a real choice because you’re still hung up on an old choice you no longer have. The older choices of Vanilla were still arbitrarily laid out by Blizzard. The modern choices of Retail are still arbitrarily laid out by Blizzard. And here you are whining that one is objectively better than the other out of pure nostalgia and anchoring bias.
Shaman need not apply apparently, and UI reskins are all it takes for you to think it is different. Superficiality is all you care about it seems.
Because you were given better choices and more of them?
Bwahahahaha holy crap… you can literally exchange “1h and a shield” with dual-wielding and your argument apparently falls apart.
Welcome to WoW, where how things always have been don’t actually matter and never have. Otherwise Druids would still be a useless hybrid class that was good for nothing in particular other than being a mediocre replacement for when you couldn’t find a Mage, Priest, Rogue, or Warrior.
Solotov Summarized: I liked it better when Warriors were amazing and didn’t have trade-offs like everyone else.
It isn’t. It is entirely possible that a thing that isn’t required to be true could be true.
It is entirely possible that one thing being true does not guarantee another related thing being true.
It is not a contradiction to suggest that just because something has happened in one case it doesn’t mean it must also happen in another case.
It is not a contradiction to suggest that because something doesn’t justify something else it doesn’t mean it precludes it.
Correlations happen without causation a lot. It’s common. Suggesting that correlation does not imply causation is not a contradiction.
My example:
Just because something was appropriate in WOTLK doesn’t imply it is necessarily appropriate for TBCC. And in turn this does not imply that something appropriate for WoTLK cannot also be appropriate for TBCC. It needs to be assessed on its own merits. There is zero contradiction in this. It’s fundamental logic. Implication is not necessarily bidirectional.
Proposition: DS was appropriate for Wotlk does not imply it is appropriate for TBCC.
Counter proposition: DS cannot be appropriate in TBCC if it was appropriate for WoTLK.
The counter is wrong and not logical and doesn’t follow. There is no contradiction in my first proposition and me also asserting that some things appropriate in WoTLK may also be appropriate in TBCC. The first proposition doesn’t imply that I’m saying it’s prevalence in WoTLK means it cannot be appropriate in TBCC. It is entirely consistent and appropriate for me to argue that DS is not necessarily backward compatible with TBCC while other features may work in both.
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Well yes, and people have provided ample examples of why dual sped is appropriate for TBC Classic. And so far no one can provide an example of why dual spec is not appropriate for TBC Classic.
This is dishonest. Ample examples have been supplied on both sides of the discussion, none of the with evidence though - except maybe the claim to popularity.
It’s dishonest and not a mistake because it’s been pointed out to you many times now.
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What actual in game reason has been provided that hasn’t been debunked?
It’s dishonest to claim that the reasons why dual spec might be bad haven’t been addressed.
You’re not asking that question in good faith.
You rejected many reasons given.
You are well aware of the reasons.
This is a cyclical pattern that you are one of the primary instigators of. Like groundhog Day.
You ask for specifics, we give them and you reject them. Then a cycle of playing the man and strawmanning is pushed until the conversation is cluttered with irrelevant factors and you ask again pretending we never gave an answer. It’s well beyond the point of boring and it’s is painfully obvious the trick you’re trying to pull.
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Rejecting a reason in bad faith means the rejection is not based on the merit of the reason.
The reasons against dual spec have just been garbage by and large. And have been rejected as such.
The only legitimate concern I have heard is people switching specs every pull, which guess what, could easily be solved by simply adding a cool down to switching. And is also a silly concern to begin with as it shows little comprehension of how raids work.
And what is in bad faith is not acknowledging that most people asking for dual spec would be totally fine with that.
If your pitch is that the people against DS have never given a single attempt of an example of things that could go badly with DS. Then you must really take the Devs for suckers. It’s plainly obvious looking at any thread on this topic that it is not the case.
You’re cluttering the thread up with asinine requests that we repeatedly grace with answers over and over and over.
And I have no doubt you do it for bumps to get the petition over the line.
I don’t actually care if it works at this point. I just want it abundantly clear to all what your game is and the fact that you’re acting in a completely disngenious way. Smoke Mirrors and campaign tricks just to get what you want. The quintessential essence of entitlement. Whatever it takes to get what you want.
This forum is 4chan for wow players unfortunately so you’re free to abuse these forums and probably without consequence. The TOS pretty much only acts as a legal disclaimer that barely gets enforced so there’s not a lot that can be done to hold you to any standard of honesty here. I Just have to accept that this is not a place for rational and fair discussion.
There’s actually plenty of room for compromise that most of us would be willing to engage in. But everytime a decent compromise option comes up, in come the asinine questions and strawmen to derail the topic and make it a contest of opposites again. Because you’re not actually here for compromise, you’re here to petition through any means available to get what you think you’re entitled to.
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I mean if those same devs hadn’t implemented dual spec and we’ve seen none of the anarchy that is claimed will result from it actually does…
Kinda makes a lot of the reasons against dual spec seem like baseless fear mongering…
10 minutes of dailies is enough to do 2-3 dailies which will yield over 15g a day.
Quick question, who here who likes dual spec would mind say a 3 hour cool down on it?
How about no CD but it costs 50g and can only be done at your trainer
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Great point, except for the part where any form of cheating should be banned, and I’ll be the first in line to mock anyone who gets banned for cheating.
Seriously, comparing me wanting a product advertised as classic to remain without changes while opposing whining nubs, to not wanting to ban cheaters… what kind of moron would honestly believe they are related? But that’s the kind of logic I expect from people like you who believe they are entitled to any whim that they have and are mad they’re not getting their candy.
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A pure #nochanges would be that if it could happen in vanilla it should happen now.
Are you saying you want changes?
I gave you plenty of detailed reason as to why me and many people dont like retail not just “eh look at the retail stuff, looks horrible am i right?”
Didnt play MoP but i played BFA and can tell you almost exactly how the tree works from a Warrior and DK PoV:
DK:
-
You pick Blood spec. You get shown maybe 8 rows of 3 abilities each. They each slightly alter your characters abilities. You get 2 (maybe 3? pvp talents). You get a base health increase and death strike heals you for more than it would had you picked the other two specs. You also get blood boil, death and decay, and a few other blood spec only abilities. You immediately lose chains of frost. You cant use anything other than a 2h weapon. All your runes are blood runes
-
You pick frost and now you lose heart strike (aoe cleave attack), blood boil (aoe “shout” attack), bone storm (aoe damage/healing ability). Death strike heals you for less and does more damage. You gain frost strike and depending on your talent load out you could get …frost scythe i think its called? You also get obliterate, howling blast, remorseless winters. Basically all the frost abilities you would normally have had in WOTLK on DK as any spec (with the exception of a few) except you ONLY have those and basically have no blood and no plague abilities. Youre locked into Dual wielding (as of BFA i know this got changed in shadowlands)
They basically strip 80% of the abilities of the class and only give you portions of said abilities that the class has overall and then 80-90% spec specific abilities
Nope its a lot more than that See above
No its much more than just “i cant have deep wounds when i dual wield.” and more of a warriors kit was not so rigid between different specs. I have freedom in tbc to come up with any spec i want within the talents given to me. Offering me more variety. Again, sure, these specs not be “the best” but if i have fun playing them who cares?
No I explain how the new talent system locks you into a majority of abilities only available to the spec you have chosen. And most of the other abilities are removed from your bar.
Kinda like how frost mage basically only has frost abilities and fire only has fire (for the most part.)
I feel like theres more “illusion of choice” in Retail vs TBC
Out of preference?
So dismiss my argument because you simply dont agree? Even though im presenting you with valid points.
Show me where youre given “more weapon choices” while being locked into a specific weapon choice when selecting a spec?
It doesnt but alright I guess since I provide you with a logical thought process and detailed arguments and you just say “NAH BRO ITS THE SAME” we arent gonna get anywhere
Alright next time you have a really nice job and then 5 years later they change a bunch of stuff and it becomes awful remember that “how things always have been dont actually matter and never have” just accept the changes and keep being miserable at work
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You’re the worse form of hypocrite. I didn’t like multiboxers and I wanted a change. I got the change I wanted. The original vanilla devs that you like to deify were very specific when they addressed complaints about multiboxing. They explicitly endorsed it, said it was not cheating, and they would take no action against it. It was the modern devs that you despise that banned it. If you truly want classic without changes and you truly endorse the decisions of the original vanilla devs you would be against the changes to multiboxing. Your choice of name is apt. You are a fraud.
I think it’s been proven that they, themselves, are deferring to the intention of the older during-TBC devs.
Take a look at the feral energy change. That was an actual change, because feral energy did not work this way in real TBC.
However, they changed it, because they hooked up with the actual designer of that patch and change, and he clarified that feral was hit with an unintended side-effect/bug of another change, so in the true spirit of what TBC was always meant to be, they made that change, or “fix” in this case, even though it’s not technically “in the spirit of true TBC”.
If they went that far to confirm the logic behind a simple mechanics change to a class, what makes you think they aren’t valuing same-era dev thought processes on anything else? Especially something as major as dual spec.
Given that, valuing the devs who make the decisions can basically just be like saying you value the devs that the current runners of the project confide in for their during-era outlook on things.
We know what their outlook on dual spec was mid-TBC, and it probably wasn’t a bug that it wasn’t in the game.
So if you’re being truthful in that you value the opinion of the devs, I think you know where this is going. Your answer is right in front of you, all you have to do is think.
If what you mean is you prefer the perspective of the newer blood devs without any influence from the old perspectives, I mean, that’s just silly. That’s like consulting with and trusting an architect who specializes in making 1 story houses on how to build a skyscraper. Their input isn’t immensely valuable in comparison because they didn’t originally design the thing they are trying to recreate as closely as possible.
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Yes. Yes I do.
110% won’t happen in TBC.
You read it here. Favorite the post, timestamp it, w.e you need to do pal.
Trust me, won’t be the first time I’ve said I told you so since classic started.
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I don’t know the devs mind and I never claimed to. Not the original devs nor the modern devs. When I was making real arguments in the beginning of the thread and not just using you to bump the thread I made different arguments not based on dev statements. No one can know what they thought based on the few snippets of quotes we get and even those are likely sometimes propaganda and rationalizations to push the company line. Funny though how you always know what they’re thinking now and what they thought then and they always think exactly like you do.