Alright let me slow this conversation down for you
Is BiS specs and gear not part of the entirety of the game?
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Not really no. You cite a singular example of Paladins swapping from Holy/Retribution to Protection for one fight in a 10m that doesn’t require an actual Tank to manage the pre-nerf adds.
Because non-“AoE” specs can still AoE just fine and you have to then mana up for the swap and there aren’t that many trash packs before each boss that even need or reliably should be AoE’d. It isn’t like an Arcane Mage can’t hit AoE buttons that hurt…
Because this kind of fight variation isn’t really a thing.
Because I don’t have a Balance set? Are we now just assuming everyone has equally geared setups for multiple specs?
None of this silliness matters an iota because AS YOU ALREADY STATED PEOPLE LEAVE AND COME BACK TO RESPEC. Can’t change the ease of the game when the game is already easy.
Deeeeeeeeeeeeeerp.
You mean it is inconvenient? Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Are*
And yes, but remember you were bemoaning a “lack of variety in builds.”
You deliberately brought up Kebab while whining about not being able to just… do whatever you want. Which Retail allows. But you don’t count it. For reasons™.
Holy crap YOU might have the memory of a goldfish but others don’t.
So we agree BiS is included in the entirety of the game
the “lack of variety” argument was about why i disliked retail and how adding more changes to TBC will slowly start to emulate Retail
Yes i brought up kebab. Show me where in retail i can pick arms but still dual wield. (As of BFA) if it changed in shandowlands i havent played it
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Subpart yes, but irrelevant to a discussion about viable specs, which you brought up.
Which now makes no sense because if you were always talking about the entirety of the game, Retail has no shortage of such. 3 specs (for most classes), 7 choices among 3 talents each, and 4 covenants. That’s 26,244 variations per class (that have 3 specs). Go nuts.
Show me where in TBCC I can have Mangle and Swiftmend.
So yes. Just because that was the first thing to come up when I thought about it doesn’t change the fact it makes the fight easier. Also like I mentioned the longer DS is out the more places for swaps would be discovered.
But an AoE spec does it better than ‘fine’? If it performs better and only takes 5 seconds to swap then why not?
It would be a thing if people could swap specs in 5 seconds.
I’m assuming the players that DO have separate sets will be encouraged to use dual spec to further min/max performance.
So being able to respec 60x faster than normal without leaving the raid instance is no different from porting players out and summoning them back? Go ahead and time your guild doing it and see how long it takes. Every swap takes time, and with limited raid schedules that time adds up and can make a difference in a guild being able to reach/clear content each week.
Nope. I mean you can’t ignore the fact that the time it takes to port players out and summon them back is exponentially longer than a 5 second cast to swap specs with dual spec.
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Yes irrelevant to the subconversation about viable specs but not to the overarching conversation about Dual spec. To remind you, I was talking to and quoting someone else about how adding dual spec to TBCC slowly starts to make TBCC start to resemble Retail. And you quoted me and asked me to elaborate why thats a bad thing. I then went on to explain that i disliked retail because of the lack of variety and viable specs. Its very cookie cutter and once you pick your tree youre locked into a weapon type and limited build variety.
I already spoke on that i havent played shadowlands i played up until BFA. If things have changed since then thats great but the depth that was in BFA was shallow, in terms of specs/builds. If they added more in Shadowlands that backs my point that up until the recent expansion builds were shallow and not meaningful enough. Hence why they added more depth with covenants.
Youre comparing two talents that a far down in each tree. Im comparing being locked into a weapon type when you pick a spec.
If you picked resto and were unable to use weapons that were meant for feral id agree with you. But if you wanted to. You could half/half your car between feral and resto, even with a full resto spec. Or do any combination of stuff in between.
No.
For exactly the reason I stated: you have to mana back up after a swap. Warlocks can get back into the action quickly enough but Mages take a long time and you’d have been better off just letting them stay as-is, AoE it all down, and by the time you’d have caught-up from using a better AoE spec, you’re at the boss and need to swap already.
Fights don’t change because people can swap.
We already are.
In terms of substantial changes to your performance, yes they’re they same. At best you’re going to find that one particular corridor of mobs that lends itself to heavy AoE is made 45 sec faster by having the Mages and Warlocks swap, or something similarly minor and unnoticeable by 99.9% of guilds. Otherwise it is something key like having someone go from Healing to Tanking on a fight that heavily favors AoE (like Nightbane) where the strategy entirely hinges on Protadin AoE threat, which means you’d swap anyway if you weren’t already prepared with that character in tow.
Yup.
Which is a non-starter anyway since “like Retail” is amorphous and not the boogey-man you keep trying to make it out to be.
So 26,244 variations is “depth” but 6,561 variations is “not depth”?
That’s the difference between Covenant and no-Covenant.
…and? You’re harping on an arbitrary set of skills that have nothing to do with each other.
Weapons aren’t more special than skills and spells.
That’s basically one of the biggest glaring discrepancy and proof that the pro dual spec noobs are bads: they all scream about how it’s an easy game, and yet demand to get more changes to help their scrub asses cope. The Dunning-Kruger is real.
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It is very easy to understand for anyone who is playing different contents, but obviously not for someone who rejects the idea behind it.
Is there a significant dependence between lack of intelligence and rejection of dual spec? It seems so to me, but the number of test persons is too small to evaluate that, since most players are in favor of dual spec.
Only other thinkable options are: You earn money with gold selling or you are an absolute antisocial person, because you don’t want to begrudge others having a better time, even though it would have no negative impact on your gaming experience.
I think that says it all. 
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Honestly I find it difficult to respond to posters like Xuxu and Fasc, since it’s becoming increasingly obvious they are either literal children or adults with learning disabilities. At some point we kind of just have to leave them be.
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Pretty sure not really doesnt equal no…
Swap after the boss while rez/rebuffs are going out, then swap back before the next boss. Not talking about swapping between each and every trash pull.
So then adding dual spec just encourages even more people to do so and and give them a way easier method of swapping specs for different fights.
Just because that’s the only benefit you can come up with in a short amount of time doesn’t mean there won’t be plenty of more significant time saves discovered if DS is implemented.
Not necessarily. Hypothetically speaking if a guild spends 1 night clearing kara up to nightbane and even with the prot pally in healing gear they wipe repeatedly until they reach the end of raid time, the next night they’d have the pally respec holy before the raid started and kill nightbane easier. Then on the next lockout once they get to nightbane again they have a choice of stopping raid to port the pally out so he can respec holy (which made the difference between wiping or killing the boss), or they can try nightbane with the comp they have and attempt to improve as a guild by not needing a 3rd holy specced healer. If dual spec was in the game then every time they got to nightbane they’d just swap the paladin to holy without thinking about it because it only takes 5 seconds, and that removes some of the fun of improving or ‘progressing’ as a guild week by week.
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Funny, as it is exactly what I think about guys like you. I mean, did you read his argument I reacted to?
It are guys like you who are expressing over and over and over again that you are against it with more and more absurd arguments.
It’s fine that you are against it and it’s fine that you let us know, but why are you spamming the thread and try to down talk anyone who is in favor with it?
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It are guys like you who are expressing over and over and over again that you are for it with more and more absurd arguments.
It’s fine that you are for it and it’s fine that you let us know, but why are you spamming the thread and try to down talk anyone who is against it?
It does in this case.
Point still stands… and if you’re rezzing and rebuffing then you have a ton of downtime anyway and the hair-splitting over time is misplaced.
So you agree that Dual Spec will encourage people to break into other roles, collect off-spec gear, learn more facets of their class, and make the overall raiding experience more enjoyable and fluid? Neat!
I’ll care about consequences that can be articulated when they are actually articulated, not vague hypotheticals of doom and/or gloom.
Your hypo doesn’t change anything, since with or without Dual Spec people gravitate to the first thing that works with any measure of consistency, even when better strategies and setups available to them that are easier to implement are found or discovered. Kind of like the hassle of going to respec, most guilds think it is better to just do what everyone is familiar with so you clear content over trying to reinvent the wheel.
Funny how your example undermines your entire case.
Alright, move on troll. Welcome on my ignore list.
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Sounds like you agree that adding dual spec makes raids easier but you’re just trying to downplay how much easier it makes them.
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It doesn’t, since we already have the ability to respec between bosses and during raids. You need the underlying specs, gear, and willingness to bother adapting such things.
I’m pretty sure you can’t respec during raids, you have to leave the raid to respec. Now with dual spec in the game then you would be able to respec during raids.
Adding dual spec makes the underlying specs available, the gear more beneficial to those using it, and increases the willingness to make those adaptations because it’s so much faster.
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so you’re just not going to acknowledge that dual spec makes it 1000x easier? lol
You’re still respeccing during the raid time… don’t be silly.
They’re already available.
The gear is already beneficial to use for those specs.
Negative. Willingness to play those roles has to be there already, it isn’t brought forth by Dual Spec. You’re confusing willingness to go back to a trainer to respec with willingness to play Boomkin over Bear. Don’t be illiterate.
I know it makes it easier to swap, that’s the point.
But it doesn’t make it easier to raid. If you want to take advantage of Protadin AoE threat, you bring a Protadin, or you send one of your Paladins to go respec when you need it. That is already in the game right now. All the benefits to raiding you keep bringing up are already in the game. The only convenience that Dual Spec brings is the mechanism by which you access those benefits.
Apparently a UI swap is a bridge too far for someone already geared in two specs and willing and able to play them, to the point of respeccing from boss to boss as needed.
You really are fixated on superficiality.