Do you realize that this is exactly how the “talent system” works in HotS, a free to play MOBA? It’s clearly a dumbed down system. You’re paying a sub for a system that works for a free to play game. lol
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not only that but i played A LOT of HotS. Specifically i played thrall for nearly or just over 3 thousand games (not including the other heroes i played) And my MAIN complaint with that game (even though i enjoyed it) was LACK OF BUILD VARIETY. Wow its almost like the same system in 2 games sufferes THE SAME PROBLEM
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Communicating badly (that’d be you) is not my problem.
PvE content is easy.
Respeccing is annoying and has nothing to do with the ease of PvE content.
Bwahahahaha what does this have to do with anything? You know talent trees like Vanilla/TBC exist in Bloons Tower Defense?
You keep harping on this like it means something without actually diving into the what and why of any of it. It is almost like you don’t know, you just know that “build variety” and “freedom of choice” and “customization” are fun buzzwords that bad games lack… or something.
LOL
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I never played that game, but it’s cool that they took the time and effort to put in a real talent system, rather than a dumbed down joke like retail WoW/HotS 
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So all it takes to make a talent system “real” is to take power from a single option, dice it up across 30 options, and make those all line up in sequential order so that you can get to the next power option you were always going to take?
Superficiality, thy name is Arielba.
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more options = more customization is possible = system is deeper and more fun
this is a very simple concept.
no, i’m not surprised you don’t get it.
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Same results repackaged. Not more options.
The fact that our talent system requires 5pts to move down, we have 3 choices, those choices are more often than not less than 5pts, and plenty of tiers have dependencies means that we are only beguiled by the shape and figure of the trees themselves, not what they actually offer or fundamentally change.
There isn’t an option in getting Heart of the Wild, that’s 23 points you have to sink, and your only choices are to improve abilities you use or abilities you do not. Feral Aggression is DoA as even improved, our Demo Roar is inferior to Demo Shout or Curse of Weakness, and we rarely, if ever, get to use Ferocious Bite. In contrast, stripping 5 points of Rage or Energy off of all our primary skills in both Bear and Cat is always useful and powerful for any version of Feral. There is only an illusion of choice and growth created by separating tiny portions of power, 4% more Armor here, 2% more crit there, 0.1s faster casting over there, putting them in a line you can’t skip, and telling you to go to the bottom of the tree anyway.
So like I said, superficiality, thy name is Arielba.
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Ah nice place the blame on me because you ASSumed that i was talking about raiding. Gotcha
Heres an example. Fury/prot was NOT a thing in original vanilla. But after the game being out for a while people found different ways to spec their character to be not only a “viable” tank but what was considered BiS for almost all raid content in classic.
Something like this could not be done anymore because when you spec prot in retail you gain an automatic like 20% health increase and damage reduc. As well as being able to use shields. You cant use a shield as fury or arms
you cant dual wield as arms
you cant 2h as fury.
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If you were talking about all aspects of the game, BiS wouldn’t even enter into the conversation. You can solo in a variety of specs, quest in the same, do casual dungeons and easy PvE in the same, and PvP offers a wealth of specific options if you’re just dinking around in a BG. Since I just described the vast majority of the game, excluding only competitive Arenas and high-end Raiding, the only place BiS makes any showing, that is what you said when you talked about viability, BiS, and the number of specs therein.
Trying to equivocate now that you were including all areas of play, makes your statement flatly nonsensical. A completely talentless class can solo, quest, and do casual PvE and PvP content, making literally any talent choice OR NO TALENT CHOICE WHATSOEVER viable for large quantities of the game.
Like I said, not my fault you communicated badly.
False. It was always a thing and people did it all the time in original Vanilla when they made the Warrior who generally DPS’s just slap on Tank gear and pick up adds. What people didn’t do was dedicate every moment of the raid towards trying to strip defensive gear off of Tanks (Druids and Warriors alike) to make the runs go hyper fast. Speed wasn’t a premium resource in Vanilla, so deep Protection was no better and no worse than Fury/Prot or Arms/Prot (the other common Vanilla variant).
Oh noes… you can’t do the exact same job as Deep Prot but with Bloodthirst or Mortal Strike instead of Shield Slam. Such variety. Much customization.
/giggle
Are you really so easily duped that because you put points into a different check box of passive stat increases that don’t provide abilities, CDs, or changes in player behavior, that somehow a new spec was born and that Retail mercilessly ruined that?
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Well since the topic is about dual spec and people complaining that they CANNOT pvp in pve spec so they NEED dual spec so they can have both. This encompasses ALL facets of the game. Not just raiding and high end arena pvp. Especially considering the fact i said
It was very specific i was talking about classic variety not specifically TBC. Arenas didnt even exist in classic
Sounds like moving a goal post
Fury/prot as a main tank? no it wasnt a thing. At least not in a majority. Im sure there were people who did it but definitely not as the META spec
When you force players into a specific weapon type just based on the spec they pick. That forces them into a specific role. Thus removing variety and creativity from builds.
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Retail talent options…use this for dps, this for dps, or this for dps.
Classic talent options, use this for dps, use this for better mobility so you can keep dpsing, use this for more mana sustain for longer fights to do more dps, use this for more CC so you can focus dps more without having to interupt X target more often, use this for more dps from your allies, exc.
I made a CC survival build for early tbcc before we out scaled heroics.
I had scatter shot, lower trap CD, resist, longer duration, and wyvern sting. I also did reasonable dps (not top tear by any means, but enough). You can’t make a build like that in retail. Because of my spec I could trap 2 targets reliably, sleep 1 then scatter shot the sleep target to keep it CCed longer. For 3 CC. Because I speced for it and I made heroics easy for undergeared groups who just got access to said heroics.
Having more options in your spec is better than the retail design. If you love that dumbed down design so much go to retail. The more you post the more I’m convinced that’s the game for you.
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That is incorrect.
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Wrong from the start. Dual Spec isn’t a need, it is a convenience, which is fine.
Which means Raiding only… which still means my response is accurate. You brought in BiS, not me.
I’d explain “inherency” to you but you’d probably just get more confused.
Who cares about meta in the majority of the game?
PICK A TOPIC FFS
This isn’t an interesting statement, because it is tautological.
“When people aren’t allowed to be creative, creativity is removed.”
Further, you are literally whinging about a Warrior-only unique scenario where choice between 1H and 2H could even be a discussion thanks to bland, non-specific passives making up the bulk of your talents. Warriors are way too sensitive about how dull their class is writ large…
You never made it past Vanilla did you? Or a real raid? Or have any idea how silly you sound trying to make 0.5 extra seconds on Gouge sound neat and interesting against another 1% of Dodge.
You’re right, you get all the nonsense you were going to get anyway by choosing a spec (5% crit, haste proc on crit, extra AP scaling, etc) and you are left with picking between the big ticket items people already cared about more than anything else like big CDs, new damaging skills, or passives/procs that fundamentally alter how you approach your role.
Retail provides more.
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Sounds like a need to me if a player is “stucked” and you are avoiding queueing for bgs because youre pve spec
You realized premade bgs existed in classic and you can have different specs for different premades depending on your role? You realize raiding isnt the only content in the game in classic? You realize that just because its not COMPETITVE HIGH END PVP or COMPETITIVE PARSING WITH FULL CONSUMES AND WBS doesnt meant its irrelevant content?
More like you keep ducking when proven wrong but ok.
Clearly you do since youre focused on “Raiding and high end pvp arenas” meaning things that are meta? BiS is not some niche set of talents and items only 5% of the playerbase follows. BiS and Metas are followed by the majority regardless of if they are doing casual pvp or high end arena pvp, casual raiding or high end raiding.
Also one of my arguments against dual spec is it will change the meta of tbc dramatically? So im not sure why youre so lost…well i mean i am because youre missing a few up top but
Pretty sure DKs in BFA were locked in the same way. And rogues were locked in the same way with daggers vs 1hs in BFA. As far as other classes idk because thats all i played in BFA at the time i played it. So no its not a warrior only unique scenario
Laughable but if you believe so Dual spec is waiting for you right there…,…or rather unlimited free respecs at the drop of a time.
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Then go there.
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You have demonstrated repeated inability to communicate clearly, so I’m not surprised you interpret wants and conveniences as “needs” for the sake of argument. You are wrong of course but eh… you more or less respond to me randomly at this point. Proceed.
So, again, for the 6th or 7th time, you are AGAIN redefining the scope of what you’re talking about that directly contradicts prior statements.
Is Solotov’s Gameplay Choices anything like Schrodinger’s Cat?
You called the logical conclusion of your own argument a moving of the goal posts. I’ll let you figure the rest out.
/headdesk
I’m not re-explaining the point.
Naw, I like TBCC content and want it improved.
doesn’t retail allow you to play TBCC content?
you have literally no reason not to go there and leave us alone.
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Again im not. I am and have been talking about A L L aspects of the game. Not just Raiding, Not just meta, not just classic or tbcc. A L L and how they A L L relate to the adding of dual spec. And my dislike for how retail is.
Theres nothing to re-explain. You said it was a
When clearly it isnt lol. So again proven wrong. Just because warrior was the only one i initially brought up, doesnt mean the problem only resides with that class exclusively.
No i countered your argument with a logcal conclusion and you said “Which means raiding only”
No im talking about the E N T I R E game. Because this games features are not separate from each other. You cant talk about one facet of the game and exclude others in most cases. Especially when talking about things like dual spec, or specs in general, which all have places within the game as an entirety.
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Nope, that’s TBC content.
Sure I do, Devs asked for feedback and so I’m asking for Dual Spec. 
So your entire aside about premade BGs was just a romp and a frolic? Neat!
Your rebuttal didn’t actually dispute the claim because you missed the point by (as usual) ignoring inconvenient statements and facts that don’t match the argument in your head.
You can re-read and correct yourself.
See above.
There is no BiS regarding the E N T I R E game, so bringing up viability or BiS or meta in regards to the E N T I R E game is nonsensical and stupid.
So either you spoke poorly and now are just trying to weave around to avoid being wrong…
Or you’re woefully unprepared to have a meaningful conversation.
I’d rather assume you spoke poorly than think you’re doing yourself a disservice cutting class in the 5th grade.
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Then why did we see raids sending paladin tanks to respec holy on Nightbane? Respeccing 100% contributes to the ease of TBC content. With DS in place why not have all warlocks and mages swap to an AoE spec for trash packs then back for bosses? Why not have all unnecessary tanks/healers swap to heals/dps on fights when they’re not needed? Why not have the melee dps hybrids swap to ranged on melee-unfriendly fights?
Just like DS would encourage more people to partcipate in PvP, it would encourage more people and guilds to participate in min/maxing raid performance by respeccing throughout the raids.
The time investment required to respec players during raid currently cannot be disregarded. Dual spec allows ANY GUILD (not just guilds with summoning alt networks and players ready with add-ons to help swap specs/actionbars/macros easier) to swap as many players specs as they’d like in as little as a 5 second cast time. Compared to the time it takes an average guild to respec players (in my experience 5-15 minutes) even on the low end that 60x faster. As the dual spec meta develops more and more swaps will be discovered. The faster a guild is able to make swaps that benefit their performance against certain boss/trash fights the faster they clear the content. The faster content is cleared the faster people run to the forums whining that the game is too easy and the content just falls over.
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