Drakonid/Dragonspawn Are Hilariously Problematic, and It Didn't Have To Be This Way

Lore Story Forum
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Lets not forget its the same writer who wrote all those monolouges in different books and who put that S word context in there. This is the writer who is also the one who was using Nuremberg trials as a reference when writing warcrimes and cited genocide in her stories when referring to WOT.

This is now the writer of all the cinematics of wow, which have all turned into melodramatic speeches between characters rather being cool action set pieces.

This writer can’t help but force politics into all her writing.

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Wellp, can’t argue with that. We’re all entitled to our opinions.

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Don’t get me wrong, I see where you are coming from. Blizzard has a…history…
I just, I dono I don’t know if I see it with this.
Now that Chromie quest that was scrapped on the other hand (the one were you go back in time to make sure…that…happens to the Red Dragons)…Woah Nelly that was BAD BAD. I never cringed so hard reading quest dialog in my life, what WERE they thinking??? :grimacing:

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85

Omg don’t get me started!

Glad we can find common ground! XD

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86

The idea we have to go back in time and make sure any of these terrible things happen now is ridiculous when Chromie is allowed to break the timeline.

The fact the story doesn’t address this is terrible.

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Yeah, it’s not like, super radical or whatever, but Alexstrasza’s offense seems more in the deaths involved, which feels kinda like her shtick. It’s not amazing, but it’s not bad imho. Hopefully when we get to that ‘punishment’ it’s just putting Belophon in charge of the new ‘Dragonkin’ flight, something about responsibilities and all. It seems in Alexstrasza’s nature.

Side note: Is it ever like, clarified that the Bronze Dragonflight works to ensure the future happens as its predicted? I know stuff like that’s been kinda hard to do for Nozdormu since Deathwing died and its still fuzzy now and I know Bronze Dragons aren’t supposed to use their powers to prevent their own deaths, but I mean, we’ve never really been jumped forward in time by the Bronze flight, only backwards.

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88

Famously safe, sanitized and apolitical The Elder Scrolls which is owned by Microsoft currently and never ever attempted to do anything else during the purchase illustrates that you are speaking nonsense and, like many Warcraft players, are making up weird rules that are based on absolutely nothing.

You people live in a parallel universe, I swear to God.

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89

I told that they tried not that they succeeded,
Bfa started with the morally grey dilema that everyone was concerned about.
They tried to write a war, the final war between the two major factions and they could not, they tried to touch on genocide and we are still haunted by teldrassil and its aftermatch so, yeah they tried to touch on game of thrones and we saw what happened.

Yeah I know but it was not ME who tried to use it as a base for their game it was the current team and like I said they tried to copy it and we all saw how well that ended.

Trying something is not the same as achieving that thing…
I do not like bfa, for me it was when wow lost is flavor, lost its soul. But they tried to touch on alot of sensitive topics, and these forums were hell on earth for about half a decade, so after all that, they are playing safe, And they will continue to do so until Microsoft concludes the negotiations.

So yeah pardon me if my view on this game is rather “cold” that enthusiasm with the lore I left in 2016. Blizzard values other things, so the game will never satisfy me, not with the current mentality of the company. Bad writing is just a symptom not the cause.

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BFA started with a wholesale act of unprovoked genocide that was retcon’d between it being launched and the expansion going live

In what FATHOMABLE way was that morally grey? Deeply unseirous argument. Do better.

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91

You should ask the devs not me, I’m telling what they said at the time, that BFA was a morally grey story with neither side being good or bad, i’m not defending the story of bfa I hate it.
Like I said bfa was the start of the ending for me, teldrassil was a fiasco, sylvanas was a fiasco, the whole azerite was a fiasco from gameplay to lore, the war was a fiasco, nzoth and azshara dhould’ve gotten their own expansions and not shove into an HxA expansion.
So nothing on bfa was morally grey but the devs sold it anyway.
So stop quoting like I’m defending blizzard I’m just being realistic, that the drakonid dilema with slavery will not get addressed nor it is the intention to build a more serious, political or meaningful story cuz this not Final Fantasy XIV nor this is a company that values those things, money is all they value, and money is easier to sell when you don’t have to care about anything other than cool moments and colorful places, bosses and characters to show on the screen.

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There’s a saying that people who try to sit on the fence eventually get knocked over

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93

Just gotta sit deeply enough on one of the posts.

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94

You are right. This whole endeavour is pointless, you should probably leave since we aren’t doing anything of value. After all, you probably have better things to do, yes?

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95

I’m not sure comparing any real world society to one where the leaders are literal immortal lizard demi-gods necessarily… works. I get where it comes from, but it seems a bit askew and I’ve noticed the criticisms always come back to Alexstrazsa by and large. WoW players tend to pick one major character they’re annoyed by in a given xpac (and to be fair she is somewhat annoying at times… weird voice direction) and then anything that character does is cast in that same negative light. Bad things are worse, good things aren’t enough, them feeling bad about something is an admission of guilt, etc.

The rebellion aspect was a weird thing because we didn’t actually get much in the way of the reasons for the rebellion aside from the dragons being back and that was bad. The bulk of any disruptions to their lives came from mortals and Primalists, not the Aspects, who essentially just took up the leadership roles left deliberately vacant for them. Maybe I missed some references to mistreatment, or instances, but I genuinely can’t think of anything the dragons did aside from show up.

Alexstrazsa states that the dragons should treat the drakonid and dragonspawn better, but we don’t even see what worse looks like. They have jobs, a society, an economy, all of which have seemingly not been disrupted much, if at all, by the return of the dragons. And again, I’ll remind people that a character feeling bad or getting upset is not an admission of factual guilt, particularly when it’s the draconic demi-goddess equivalent of a Care Bear.

Again, the drakonid and dragonspawn have existed in the game since launch, this is the first expansion where we see them in roles that aren’t guards or soldiers, why are they problematic now when they’re finally being more fleshed out? When they’re shown to have a variety of jobs they were doing anyway, for money, and have continued to do because that’s their job. In fact, we even have quests where we see and help dragonspawn decide what career they like best or what they’re most suited for. They have the same agency as any society we’ve seen in the game for the last 18 years.

You all did the same thing with the owl bros, saying they were slaves while ignoring that they literally get paid and there are entire mechanics in Bastion based around paying the owls for tasks. And they get vacation days.

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96

Would it have been simpler if all dragons, drakonid, and dragonspawns were all hatched from the same clutch of eggs? With each egg having a random chance to give you one the aforementioned three?

I feel like giving them separate origins is what helped create this issue (them being “turned” into this creatures, forced or not).

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97

If the issue is the writing what you have done differently? What solutions to the writing problems would be best to both deal with social issues that are brought up and craft an engaging story for the game?

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Which isn’t and never has been canon. It’s also been out of print for about a decade.

What exactly is the “ethical issue” here? Did you raise a stink to the authors of DS9 about how the Founder genetically engineered and created races such as the Jem’h’ Dar and the Vorta?

I don’t think the phrase “narrative trap” works the way you seem to think it does. It’s only a trap if it’s an inconsistency within the world setting. This is a setting with crap tons of magic, weird combinations of magic and science, and we haven’t even touched the supernatural parts of it. And beings who liked to tinker

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99

Oh. My. God.

Guys, I just got suspended from the forums for this thread!!!

I actually had to appeal it. They were supposed to get back to me within 24 hours, but I guess someone double-checked and realized something very strange was going on, and reversed it immediately and without comment. My anxiety got triggered SO HARD because I thought I was being targeted!

To whoever reversed my ban, THANK YOU SO MUCH <3

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100

Welcome back to the madness, :grinning:

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101

To Danseis, I already explained what they should have done differently in my OP. They just needed to not change the lore without thinking XD

Or otherwise, don’t write these issues into their game if they’re not prepared to deal with them in a well-written way.

As I’ve said multiple times, I’m FINE with dragonspawn being controversial, dark, and a bit creepy. But it’s the CONTEXT AND WORLDBUILDING that matters.

The original explanation for Dragonspawn felt purposeful, and fit the almost Lovecraftian nature of dragons in the old lore. It felt INTENTIONAL. Like they were these demigods who cared about the planet and the Titans’ plan, but less so for the ant-like individuals beneath them.

It also drew attention to the strange magics that emanate from the dragons, since just being near them for generations can mutate your descendants.

In short, sometimes problematic concepts can enhance the worldbuilding (ever heard of the Witcher?), but the key is to have a clear vision and to know what ideas you’re trying to get across.

Dragons should have remained aloof, demi-god like beings. Blizzard is notoriously bad at this (even in the good ol days) but I promise you: it is possible to make an ancient godlike being feel like an ancient godlike being, while still having a compelling character

Easy example: Elder Scrolls. I criticize that franchise a lot, but one thing they’re (usually) good at is characterizing gods.

When I talk to Vivec in Morrowind, I BELIEVE he is an ancient, enlightened being who rewrote reality to steal his own godhood.

I can also have a long conversation with him about what it feels like to be a god. I can also ask him his opinions on local politics and current events. He comes off as a person with a personality, beliefs, goals, and motivations.

Warcraft could have had this with the dragons. Instead, they decided to make them humans with horns.

So, what used to be an intentionally problematic concept that still had some nuance and gave the dragonspawn some degree of agency while portraying the dragons as scary and aloof, became a bunch of Titan-supremacists putting Order into the water and turning the reptiles into himbos

Ok I hate to use an Aex Jnes meme here, but again Blizzard is just WLAKING INTO these weird political statements because they’re NOT ACTUALLY THINKING THINGS THROUGH when they change stuff, and they don’t seem to understand the implications they’re creating, nor how to create a problematic issue and address it in a satisfying way.

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