When did I say a good feral out dpses a good rogue/warrior? They certainly out dps bad or mediocre rogues/warriors on most fights. I didn’t say anywhere that they out dps them I said that it is the biggest individual dps increase.
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If you use two weapons, they both have the same miss penalty applied. Yeah rogues can cap on yellow hits (And nobody crit caps on these even without hit cap anyway really) but their white hits are very directly affected by their hit % over 6/9%.
My bad I forget Sinister strike and such is different to heroic strike.
My arguement is the dps increase from going over 6/9 hitcap for a rogue (It is extremely easy to get capped with talents/racials/items) is less than a Feral whom is able to move more higher AP pieces around, getting more dps and value from it.
Ah I wouldn’t know something that specific, I’m sure theres a big difference depending on the rogues spec too (swords vs daggers) atleast though.
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I imagine the dps increase is bigger for daggers compared to swords as the majority of sword rogues have higher wep skill and iirc get more value from T2 but from what ive seen and simmed its a bigger individual dps increase
This is such a weird argument. If you’d feel like the numerical differences matter you’d probably not run a feral in the first place. Tank or DPS.
And if you’re just gaming with the lads it doesn’t matter at all. Just have loot on Need/Greed/Pass and kill some dragons.
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Yeah this entire post has devolved quiet a bit but its nice to have interesting conversations.
Completely agree, the only druid where such numbers really matter will be a resto/balance hybrid spamming faerie fire.
There is an imbetween where people want to maximise their big numbers on the screen and get good loot which is where 50% of raiders are at 1% are speed runners 19% are guilds who try to speed run and 30% are dad guilds who /roll and play just to chill with mates.
I just feel the amount of people don’t realise if you’re going to bring a cat to your raid and they perform then they should be treated with equal respect loot wise.
It is quiet frustrating seeing people from 2 hour BWL guilds who’s top dps is my bad weeks legitmately thinking that a feral shouldn’t get their BIS for all of classic gear over a warrior’s slight upgrade until x y z drop.
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This is false. As has been shown, feral tanks are superior to warriors in many situations. Therefore it is numerically disadvantageous to not have a druid tank as part of the tanking team. As for Feral DPS, looking at the numbers their individual DPS plus their contribution to the groups DPS (not to mention things like battle res and innervate) is higher in some cases than the addition of a warrior or rogue in their place (assuming the feral DPS is sufficiently knowledgeable, skilled and in a guild that gives them the gear they need).
They’re talking about a speedrun environment in which warriors I agree are superior due to snap threat. If onslaught’s druid tank misses that first maul or has bad crit RNG they’re probably gonna wipe on vael.
In any other guild other than a top 100 Speedrun guild a Feral MT is fine though.
Edit: Wanna add that warriors do superior DPS (not TPS) on bosses and have cleave for packs allowing for better trash dps and threat (trash is king).
Are they? That is a situation where druid tanks are inferior (one of the few situations). It seemed they were talking about “in general”. In general you want a druid tank as part of the team, even in speed runs, at least on Alliance (I know because that’s my job). I am not sure about horde for reasons given above. I will have to look into the contribution to DPS from windfury and its scaling, then run some numbers to determine if Horde feral tank is also viable in the same capacity.
Like I’ve said earlier, I totally agree - each guild is different. There is warlock in China with a thunder-fury. I’m sure the man is enjoying his classic experience.
It’s just that on paper it’s not really an argument. On paper druids don’t perform well as cat or bear. In practice some guilds will have druids as their best players and ofc those should and will see rewards.
Imo that would be a weird guild to have a loot council in though. I’d say DKP or something similar is probably the play.
You are looking at the wrong papers. This is a false statement. If you require explanation I will provide it (again).
I’d be very surprised to see feral tanks viable in alliance speedruns.
Going for a pre-deathwish/flask/reck with full world-buffs kill on vael with a bear tank is definitely what I would describe as a nail-biter.
There might be the odd one out but even then i can’t see anything but an OT (which would be a better spot for a warrior, too).
They’re saying in a setting in which someone getting slightly more value out of an item matters is a setting a Feral Druid most likely wouldn’t be in.
Which is correct the majority of Top Tier speedrunners do not have Feral druids and if they do they are a FF bot OT.
Druids CANNOT main tank competitive speedruns dues to their unreliable snap threat, it doesn’t matter if our TPS is 15-20% higher than a fury prot if a quater of the melee die on the Vael/Broodlord pull die to an opening miss.
Out of the top 50 guilds there are 0.7% feral cats and 5.4% bear tanks.
Again, there is room for that one exceptional player but it certainly isn’t a baseline to award gear to the class over others in a more competitive setting.
You have just described the ONE situation where Bears are substantially inferior in a BWL speed clear. It is the one situation that I, and several others have already outlined as the worst place to have a Feral MT. It isn’t because a bear is less survivable (thats the opposite of the truth). It isn’t because a Bear does less overall threat (also the opposite of the truth). It is ONLY because a Bear does not have reliable snap threat, AKA the threat they can do in the first 3 seconds of a fight. A bear MIGHT get that threat. A bear might PROBABLY get that threat, but a warrior MT WILL get that threat, and thats why you go with a warrior MT on a Vael speed clear.
For many other situations you want a Bear instead. In general you don’t want a “Main Tank,” rather you want an elite Tanking Team. A feral is a integral part of that because they have strengths that a warrior does not.
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There are also a lot of people that KNOW that Bears are inferior tanks to warriors in all situations.
Facts, numbers, or evidence to the contrary is irrelevant to people who already know the truth.
This entire conversation is about a sub 25-30 min speedrun guild. That is the only place where numerical differences like dft on rogue vs feral matter, chances are if a bear needed to tank a boss that didn’t involve taunt swapping drakes then people are already dead and so is the speedrun. Bears just dont function well for speedruns compared to warriors.
In speedruns snap-threat is all that matters. No one waits. If you’re lucky you get a global before dps start blasting and that’s usually more due to positioning rather than patience.
Secondary you need tanks to be able to do dmg when they don’t tank. A fury prot with TF and full buffs hits like a truck. Bears can’t match that, either.
Survivability on tanks does not really matter as long as they don’t die. Which so far they really shouldn’t unless something somewhere goes wrong.