Dragonflight Talent Previews - Hunter and Rogue

Community General Discussion
309

Right , It’s up to them to adjust it bud. Nothing we can do about it for now. The thing is if anything is anytime we get good changes people wig out for us Subtlety rogues. I see your point and I agree to an extent however diarrhea brains see it and then scream rogue bias as they are already blasting about. Although, dance is down to 10% symbols is down to 10%, FW is up to 40 from 30%, prey if talented will remain at 5%, and people will whine about NS and bring it further down from 8%.

The cards ain’t stacked in our favor here because community scatter brain overwhelms rogue voices.

I’m with you dude , I really am. What I’m getting at is these are prob locked in to NOT allocate us 3 more points due to forum diarrhea. They are already freaking out about double vanish which rightfully belongs to us in the first place as we rely solely upon resetting and dance only. That’s why SV will never make a return as an example.

Thank you for your discussion and who knows man , maybe we will but maybe we won’t get those skill points. Either way we will adapt as rogues and deal with it.

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310

The main hunter tree feels very busy with 3 rank talents and abilities that normally would be easy to obtain currently but will be harder in the new trees.

It would be nice there were a couple extra points or if one or two more abilities were made base line.

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311

The good thing about grievances in regards to PvP is that there is a whole separate PvP tuning aura that Blizzard has the ability to turn (refer to the Outlaw buffs in the last tuning pass that had specific buffs to specific abilities that were only happening in PvE content). I just want the tree to feel good. I for once in my life am excited for something Assassination related because of how beautifully well tied together their tree is, while still retaining some meaningful choices that they can make. All I want for Subtlety is the same well tied together-ness.

Thank you for the discussion as well, we can only hope that discussions like these are utilized by Blizzard to change our Class/Specs for the better so we can have a lot of fun in Dragonflight (: Cheers.

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312

Oh completely agreed, hopefully for the fairness and betterment of our kind instead of being dragged along. I appreciate you and your thoughts. Represent our kind well and make sure to pop in the rogue forums from time to time and discuss dude. Let’s make DF great.

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313

I can appreciate that they wouldn’t want us to pick every damage buff with no drawbacks. Given Sub’s history of crazy stacking modifiers, they probably want to avoid what happened in Legion beta with DfA hitting for like 8mega lol.

But, as Pxb said, it feels a bit off compared to Assassins who can choose Tempest or not. Both specs have to take the basic “fan” spell, but after that, Sub pretty much as to spend 10% of their points in stuff that may be at best useless, or actually counterproductive (like Replicated).

Or to compare Sub to their floofy cousins, Feral has 2 oddball AoEs in the middle of the tree. But one of them (Brutal Slash) is useful on single targets, and the overall tree is more flexible with a fork in the middle just after “20 required” that opens paths to all 3 spells at the bottom. Meanwhile, Sub’s path to the bottom starts on the first row.

314

After playing with the calculators on wowhead I completely agree.

Forcing us to choose between talents that have always been baseline and things that we can spec into to make us feel unique/fun feels punitive.

  • Concussive Shot
  • Kill Shot
  • Counter Shot
  • Misdirection

All of the above should be baseline for all Hunters and cost zero points.

  • Barbed Shot
  • Cobra Shot
  • Beastial Wrath

The above three should join Exotic Pet Taming as baseline for BM Hunters and cost zero points.

I also realize the “tree” template gives many people nostalgic warm fuzzies, but being so stingy on total point limits while gating fun talents behind others that I don’t want also feels on rails punitive.

Why not just give us the same amount of points, but remove the path prerequisites so we can just choose the talents we want?

I was excited at first, but now after working with the calculator, I’d rather keep the talent system we have now because I’ve got more control to choose what I want.

315

None of those sound like Hunters.
BM sounds like a Death Knight & minions.
MM sounds like a Fire Mage.
SV sounds like a Rogue.

316

I just want a little variety. Take [Indiscriminate Carnage] for example. Every single rogue that takes that talent will have spent the EXACT SAME 13 points, nearly half the allotted spec points, with absolutely zero variation. There is no choice at all involved if you want that talent. Same deal with [Thistle Tea] or [Shadow Dance] in the class tree with the minor improvement that you have exactly one choice between 2 talents half way down the tree.

I don’t think the argument here is that folks want to go completely off the rails, just some variation.

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317

I guess I’ll have to see how this works in practice…

I loaded up the calculators on wowhead to play around because the preview in the article has very little value other than reading about each ability. (You guys should have made calculators for this!)

One thing I’m still unsure of is if the hunter talents (the base tree) is going to be consistent between all specs? So I can’t have a base tree setup for my survival setup vs. base setup with my beast master setup?

I’m also not a fan of this:

  • “Doesn’t this all mean that I will use some of my points to re-buy some things that were baseline in Shadowlands?”
    • For all the reasons mentioned above, making a huge swath of abilities open to player decision-making requires this. We hear this feedback as primarily a concern about having much less “stuff” than you had in Shadowlands. After starting with your basic class and spending 61 points in a tree, will you feel “pruned”? Openly, our goal is that you don’t. We’ll be watching for feedback on this. Our goal is for a Dragonflight character to feel like it has a similar amount of power and complexity—which can be hard to quantify—as a Shadowlands character. The main difference is you getting to choose which active buttons and passive bonuses make up that toolset, and potentially having combinations that were previously impossible.

Can we just… you know… make sure the new expansion doesn’t feel like our classes are gimped as soon as the pre-patch hits? The previous expansions that did this made me feel pretty grumpy. (Nothing like having a skill then losing it because I have to “re-learn” it at a level in the expansion!)

I like talent trees (I’m enjoying them in classic again) but I have no confidence in this dev team to get this system right. You guys are notorious for the blizzard monkey paw or placing gotchas in the system that make it anti-fun. My biggest concern with the new system is how much will respecs cost? Will this be free like it is now in retail and all I need to do is stop in a rested zone to change it? Will we be able to freely swap between specs like we do now? I didn’t see either of these mentioned and… well… let’s just make sure they’re covered :slight_smile:

edit
One other concern I have after playing with the trees for awhile… It’s nice to see that I can make a broken build (I’m a fan of coming up with weird playstyles that fit how I want to play) but I don’t see this as being widely accepted by the player base for any group content. Any plans to mitigate that?

318

Focusing on the Class Tree and BM specifically for now. There are 2 major concerns.

Abilities needing multiple multi point nodes to regain functionality that has come to be necessary for the gameplay loop of the BM spec to function.

Notably Barbed shot needing multi point investment to have multiple charges, and reduce bestial wrath CD. The spec does not function without these 2 effects as baseline, it is enough that Barbed shot and bestial wrath are in the tree, having to hop around multiple paths and go through aspect of the wild to restore core gameplay loops seems to go against the notion of choice.

In the class tree there are way too many points that only function in solo play. I dont object to beefing up pets and their abilities but it shouldnt solely affect the pet.

There are 9 points that are pretty much entirely solo pet content focused
Thick Hide - 2
Improved Mend pet - 3
Fogged Crystal - 2
Improved Exhilaration - 2

Thick Hide should be replaced with Blood of the Rhino, ensuring that any pet can serve the function of tanking in the wild in a pinch. I’d also like magic DR added to the talent to make sure the pet isn’t automatically nuked by magic effects but blood of the rhino by itself would go a long way to ensuring that Tenacity pets aren’t a trap for inexperienced players.

Improved Mend pet - I’d like mend pet to be improved baseline and replace this talent with Fogged Crystal.

Fogged Crystal - This is a prime place for a feign death DR talent, either with it providing DR when you feign, or potentially a shield. In group content Hunters woeful baseline defensives make them a liability, especially for large hits, this is a problem that exhilaration doesn’t solve, and turtle being a baseline 3 min cd can only protect from once in a while. A Duck and Cover style DR here would be amazing for functionality and making sure the class doesn’t become a problem in pushing high content.

Improved Exhilaration - This needs to either improve the functionality of the talent for both hunter and pet, maybe a solid spot for Spirit Bond, or be replaced with a basic avoidance talent

I have lots more questions about exciting and original talents and the lack thereof in many of the trees, but these concerns about high point cost either sunk into entirely solo play or to regain basic gameplay loops that the talent tree could improve on are my main concerns at this time.

319

Oh man , I completely agree. I always run stuff to be different. We will see how things play out.

320

So, how I feel (generally) about the main hunter and the MM trees. This is coming from someone who is kind of very casual, but who has played three different MM Hunters this expansion (hey, covenant switching was hard!).

Note–I’m defining casual as, “likes world content, really likes solo instanced content, and tries to do as best as they can in group content.” So that’s my positionality here.

The Main Hunter Tree

I can make a half-decent build that almost resembles most of what I already used in open world–though I’m a bit unusual for a MM hunter as I use a pet in everything that isn’t group content. Getting access to Chimera Shot again seems like it’ll be fun.

Some of the talents are split in ways that make them less fun. Improved Mend Pet and Improved Exhilaration feel bad; it’s a lot of points to spend on things that were baseline, and don’t really change up game style much. Similarly, spending multiple talent points on movement increase speeds also feels a bit crap, particularly as other classes spend less for the same effect. Two points for trailblazer is a point too many–ditto Agile Movement (maybe even two too many for that).

You have to go through a lot of somewhat situational CC and/or CC buffs to get to damage stuff. I love that they’re available, but I don’t really use Binding Shot or Scatter Shot in play. Same with Tar Trap (which, if I want Exhilaration to affect my pet, I have to take, which kinda sucks). I don’t really love having to take a stun (if I’m using a pet) or a knockback trap (which is just bleh) to get to Chimera Shot and an increase in crit–but I’ll live with it. I really hate having to take the damage reduction buff after it.

Basically, it feels like I’m having to take a lot of very situational CC–and wasting points on it–to get to the things that I want. I feel like some of these talents could be better as strictly PvP, or put on a PvP track. But…it’s workable-ish?

I still don’t feel like I can get as much as I currently have now, mind you, but it’s not the worst.

The Marksmanship Tree

I really don’t like how it’s set up. As many others have pointed out, it very much feels as though you have to choose between single target and multi-target. And not in a “well, you’ll be great at one and fair-to-middling at the other” kind of way. Instead, it’s in a “you will be pretty good at one and unable to meaningfully do the other” kind of way.

For ST–a bunch of stuff is locked behind taking either Bursting Shot & Quick Shot or Lone Wolf. Taking Bursting Shot isn’t really bad, but the main tree already locks you into taking a considerable amount of CC-ish stuff. Having to put three points into Quick Shot–which isn’t really a very fun or useful talent, and only helps a little during an execute phase–feels crappy.

Locking Multishot behind a Kill Shot trait really stinks. Again, it’s buffing the execute phase, which isn’t needed for every style of play, just to have any meaningful AoE.

Rapid Fire needing to be purchased is one thing. Rapid fire needing an additional three points invested in it so that it reaches its original baseline functionality (that is, regenerating Focus) is really crappy feeling.

How far down some things are on the tree also really stings. Trueshot being so far down locks in a bunch of points just to take it–and it was baseline before. That seems to be a trend, really–a lot of things that were baseline now require giving up other things in order to get them.

These choices don’t feel meaningful. It feels like choosing which part of my character I want to gut–and not even really having much agency over how I get to make that decision. It seems like, if it went live like this, I would have maybe half my current toolkit during the prepatch, and maybe 2/3 by the time I reach DF’s max level. If I absolutely ignore all the shinies at the bottom–so, basically, the fun new stuff–and choose to do a Lone Wolf build (which…I don’t like, because I like running with a pet, and I thought the whole point of these trees was to give us choices) I can get maybe 80-85% of what I currently have back…once I’m at level 69.

I would have a few things I didn’t have before, true. But they aren’t things I really need or want. I’m just forced into getting them to get to the things that I do want.

The MM tree doesn’t enable any new styles of play. It just makes you choose which part of the current playstyle you want to keep, and which part you want to scrap. I honestly feel like I have more meaningful and engaging choice with the current talent system. At least there, if I make an non-ideal choice because it’s fun for me to play, it only affects that talent tier. Now, if I make a non-ideal choice because it’s fun for me to play, it affects the entire rest of my progression in ways that aren’t fun.

321

I’m all for Dual Wield survival.

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322

survival has been “strong” for literally a tier? ???

323

Also can we get some explanation on why rogue is the only spec in the game now with a baseline interrupt (so far)?

324

I really miss the ranged survival DOT spec that used to exist. I wish they would give us the option to play that way again, or at least give survival a way to play as a ranged spec. Survival as it exists now feels incomplete and a bit awkward. Like it’s missing a core ability or two.

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325

Does this mean it’s possible to make very ‘bad’ builds?”

  • In short, yes.

Nice. So again, all this Talent tree stuff is pure BS.

Welcome back to cookie-cutter talent trees!

326

We have always learned it at level 5. The skill trees are designed to pick stuff up faster that people normally couldn’t do. It’s a combination of old and new. People are looking at it from max down instead of lowbie / new kid to up.

327

Its not a problem that ppl will use what the guide tells them to use, but it opens ways to have more than 1 “mythic+” or “raid” build. Having them tailor-made for each encounter or specific dungeons, it sounds a lot more fun than the current system. (also, I take talents over soulbinds and conduits anytime)

328

I like them being a choice, so you can tailor your tree for the content you’re doing. Sap isn’t really useful in raid, let’s be honest. Ditching it to improve somewhere else sounds like a fun idea to me.
Also yeah, WoWhead and icyveins will have “the best” trees and everyone will follow it, but simple talent changes in patches can totally change the whole structure of a tree, and that is AWESOME! No more “1 build for the whole expansion” I hope.

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