Draenei Warlocks? You ARE kidding?!

[Beelzebul-nazgrel]

Ya know maybe Greatbrae is just RPing with us? Cuz that’d fit his character. He cannot even convieve of a Draenei choosing to be a warlock.

[Numinaru-ghostlands]

Well a great way this works is now that the BL is dead for all intents then BL locks who where eredar/dreanei and sargeri can all come over and get lightforged like our nathrezim bro was.

So people are looking at this backwards. It’s not that LF suddenly decided to go darkside, its darkside coming lightside.

[Beelzebul-nazgrel]

@Greatbrae-dalaran

Yes i did, you refuse to accept it. No dreanei, even an desperate one, would become a warlock.

Tell that to the Sargeri.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

Dreanei it’s death, nothing less.

You got a source that the punishment for becoming a warlock is death in Draenei culture?

@Greatbrae-dalaran

No it’s not. You get executed, that is the option. Also an lfd that is not lightforged is not a lfd.

you can get lightforged and leave. It’s not as easy to execute someone as you think it is.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

Wothin their jurisdiction as a nation. Yes.

There is literally a Draenei Warlock in game since TBC in a Draenei city.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

You don’t have to. Fel acts like radiation. Just being near it effects you.

Except when it doesn’t.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

Gurss what all races all classes is! Hive mind central!

That’s the exact opposite of a hive mind. Do you even know what that means? You just saw me using a word and started using it. But it doesn’t make sense. Everyone being a slave to their culture is close to a hive mind. Some people doing their own thing against their culture is not a hive mind.

Also not even humans have all race/class so how the f is all race all class turning everyone into a human?

I stg you have to be RP.

Go to the RP forums please.

[Rarumas-whisperwind]

Now we just need the dev team to write the quests now that you solved the lore problem!

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

The question is whether lore is actually evolving and moving on. Wanton change is not lore “evolving and moving on”. You need legitimately significant events to act as a catalyst for change. There’s also contributions made through world-building.

In the context of eredar/draenei warlocks, funnily enough the opportunity for that was during the tail end of Legion and all of BFA, since the aftermath of the war with the legion was the perfect time to address this due to all the out-of-work eredar warlocks and whatnot. Velen was asking Kil’jaeden to just stop to the very end, and I’d think in the aftermath of that war he might be open to giving clemency to anyone that at the least would no longer wish to use their power to subjugate and destroy Azeroth.

---

Let’s look at some of the other instances where classes were added to certain races:

• Dwarf shaman: this was justified by the wildhammer dwarves coming to Ironforge. That Falstad Wildhammer is on the Councel of Three Hammers is evidence that they’re around.

• Night Elf mage: this was set up pre-Cataclysm. The highborne were willing to work with the night elves because they were foreseeing the Cataclysm and knew they’d have to come together if they wanted to have a chance of surviving.

• Tauren paladin: this was set up in a quest during Wrath. It wasn’t drawn for the player in a picture, but many have taken this as the justification for Tauren paladins and (to a lesser extent) Tauren priests.

Taking these into account, what we should have seen is something involving the eredar warlocks in a pre-BFA event or a short quest to tell the player that the unemployed eredar are in talks with Velen, along with the introduction of a figurehead for them. That is what we would call lore “evolving and moving on”.

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

You are literally saying every Draenei, Tauren, Orc, Human, Elf, and every other race thinks exactly identical to their peers

That is what all races all classes is in a nut shell.

I am arguing with a brick wall here. Yet, I am compelled to respond.

You can reach the same conclusion from different approaches. You wouldn’t seriously try to argue that Warriors think exactly identically, right? Or that Tauren and ZTrolls think identically, or even Humans and Dwarves? Given that they too share classes? Or, quite possibly, might they have different backgrounds that inform their decisions and character while they practice the class?

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

But every need of a culture is addressed,

Yes through different means.

We are all not the same. There is countries in the world that don’t even know what a sheriff is for example.

But they do know what law enforcement is, and go about it in their methodology, constantly observing and imitating more developed systems, with perhaps a unique spin on it borne from their particular culture. Cultures eagerly use systems, tech, and even traditions that they did not themselves develop, and sometimes even abandon their own development in favor of something someone else built. Individuals don’t have to custom-build everything they use.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

I don’t expect a Dwarf and a Elf to think the same, but I do expect them to be able to both be Warriors

This is not about warriors or martial prowers. Of course both can fight. But the means and hows is different. In lotr elves can feel the vibrations of the earth more easily (which is why they don’t use thick shoes) then a dwarf and see further, but they can’t navigate under ground for the life of them as an example. They also have 2 entirely different beleif systems. Heck even humans had a seperate way they beleive the world works.

Belief is irrelevant here, what matters is the mechanical, and mechanically a Dwarf Warrior is just as capable as an Elf Warrior. The background for those characters however can be extremely different; the Elf might view heavy plate and heavy weapons as better than the fragile and slender make of typical elven arms and armor, or the Dwarf might have been intrigued by elven craftmanship and grace and decided to try their hand at a more agile method. Both concepts are entirely valid in addition to the typical elven ranger or dwarf shield fighter, and neither invalidate the culture of the other. Nor does the elf and dwarf ‘think alike’, despite being the same class.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Bolded for emphasis. You’re actually right here, the culture is part of the reason you pic your race

Not part, the whole reason, unless your an elf fan.

What the hell does this mean? Are elves somehow unique in their ability to forego aspects of their cultural background to forge their own identites? Because I’m pretty sure every member of a race is capable of deciding their own destiny.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

That said, a character is determined by what aspects of their culture they keep, and what aspects they abandon.

Which in case of warlocks with lfd/dreanei the entire culture and theme of the race.

Maybe so. A Draenei with no home to go to anymore can be a compelling character. In fact, I’d dare say that’s actually quite on-brand with the race as a whole.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Desperation is perfectly natural

They are not in desperation to use warlock magic.

‘No Paladin would ever become a Death Knight’ - all of Azeroth pre-Arthas.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

and is a great hook to getting an otherwise-stalwart individual to indulge in darkness. A classic anti-hero trope.

Which is not the theme of dreanei.

That is forsaken themes.

The Forsaken do not have a monopoly on desperation, nor do the Draenei have a monopoly on heroism. You can absolutely have desperate Draenei and heroic Forsaken.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Oh no, internal conflict?!

There is other ways to create that and keep the race on track without throw lore in acid.

Again, desperation for power is absolutely keeping with the lore. Hell, it’s practically what makes Azeroth go round.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

You didn’t actually address the point.

Yes i did, you refuse to accept it. No dreanei, even an desperate one, would become a warlock.

No Paladin would ever serve the evil of undeath. Until one did.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Rogue soldier as an anti-hero is a classic trait that we constantly see throughout all of Warcraft.

Not really. The only 2 major ones was illidan and arthas, and they are not morally grey at all.

Jaina, Illidan, Arthas, Kael, Varian, Genn, Sylvanas, Gallywix… And those are just the big names. Nevermind the multitude of outcasts, cutthroats, ne’er-do-wells we interact with throughout all of questing.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

So they notice, but are powerless to stop them, because the Warlock in question is a celebrated hero of the Alliance

Governments don’t govern other people when they are not on their territory or jurisdiction. Specially ally ones. Doing so unless the evidence is beyond a doubt, is a good way to loose alliences. (Also the main theme of the alliance, is that is an alliance.)

And you don’t understand that an army is not going to allow their officers to be killed on the basis of being ‘taboo’. They’re going to tell the Army of the Light to suck it up and go touch grass. The LFD need the Alliance far more than the Alliance needs them, honestly, so they will fall in line when ordered to do so. Nevermind that the rest of the Warlocks of the other races will take great umbrage and possibly (and rightfully) petition LFD to get the boot. And I’m pretty sure Genn and Mekkatorque have more say than whatever jobber ‘commands’ the LFD. Maybe once they’re capable of piloting a ship without crashing it, someone’ll listen to them.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

You seem to think every race is a monolith

You seem to think the game is a sand box playground that is maintained by a hive mind.

‘Deciding one’s own path’ is ‘a hive mind’. You are not real, you must be AI or something.

@Greatbrae-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Lore is flexible

Yes and no. Every story universe has hard set rules. It is what makes the story immersive. Break those rules, and your story is trash. If you need a modern story failuire, look up rings of power, they break wvery universe rule in the book.

Apparently, Blizzard disagrees and is willing to roll the dice. Judging from the response in the Warlock threads and even here, it looks like the gamble’s paying off.

Again, you’re coming off as the one player at the table screaming that the DM is changing things, even after the rest of the table was saying ‘okay, this sounds fine’. If the DM says ‘Magic B is magic B’, then it’s Magic B until it’s decided otherwise.

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

It is entirely fine to have a PC as the ‘first example’ of an unusual race-class combination.

[Alaïs-sisters-of-elune]

I’m actually really surprised that the idea of letting any race be any class has so much traction. Clearly the people have spoken, and they don’t care about your damned lore. I mean I think a lightforged warlock is completely retarded, but I guess it’s what people want.

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

You’re conflating a new discipline or invention that is a complete unknown with a discipline that has history and a reputation. This isn’t like the FFXIV machinist questline where it was established no one took it seriously because it had never been done before.

Note that night elves got mages as a result of the highborne coming back, and they only did so because the circumstances called for it (the Cataclysm). It wasn’t a wanton change, but the result of something major happening. You would need a similarly major backdrop for Draenei warlocks, which is why I pointed to the immediate aftermath of the war with the Legion.

[Beelzebul-nazgrel]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

Note that night elves got mages as a result of the highborne coming back, and they only did so because the circumstances called for it (the Cataclysm). It wasn’t a wanton change, but the result of something major happening. You would need a similarly major backdrop for Draenei warlocks, which is why I pointed to the immediate aftermath of the war with the Legion.

You’re ironically asking for a change in culture while we’re asking for the cultures to remain the same and for outcasts allowed to forge their own path.

[Adira-blackwater-raiders]

In the Warcraft universe, a Warlock is simply a mage that has stopped using the “safe” magics of Ice, Arcane, and Fire, and delved into Fel magic to try to gain the upper hand.

Thousands have proven that this can be done safely with a strong will.

Add to this, Velen becoming less of a light fanatic after the events on Argus, and you have an open door for the race to pick up the dark arts to protect their people.

As for the Lightforged, they are whatever they were before ascension. So if they were a Warlock, but still passed the trial, they would be accepted. With perhaps a bit more suspicion than most within their ranks.

[Beelzebul-nazgrel]

@Adira-blackwater-raiders

Add to this, Velen becoming less of a light fanatic after the events on Argus, and you have an open door for the race to pick up the dark arts to protect their people.

After all it was a demon hunter who saved the day.

[Ralerath-moon-guard]

I know right?

Next they’re going to introduce a race that was Deathwing’s glorified science experiment gone amock that hasn’t been hinted at or even eluded to in the entire history of World of Warcraft.

[Adira-blackwater-raiders]

And he’s seen warlocks helping people all over the place. He certainly didn’t seem to mind when my warlock rolled up with a 7ft felguard and 20 imps at my back to defend the Exodar.

I know that’s partly a gameplay thing, but they’ve shown they can change dialogue for classes before. So if it were something he didn’t like, but accepted, they could have added a line about how he wished it had been any other hero, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Pyra-scarlet-crusade]

@Fythra-madoran

Yomamaissofat

My mama is dead.

[Fobnop-turalyon (Fobnop)]

The thing is Blizz doesn’t care about the lore either. They change and retcon it all the time to suit the story they want to tell. They’ve already greatly expanded the race/class combos from Classic where many of the original restrictions made zero sense. For example, Humans not being able to be Hunters? Seriously? Humans couldn’t be HUNTERS??? LOL.

[Cantaloupe-wyrmrest-accord (Cantaloupe)]

@Adira-blackwater-raiders

So if they were a Warlock, but still passed the trial, they would be accepted.

A warlock wouldn’t be allowed into the Army of the Light or to undergo the trial.
Xe’ra almost had Alleria deleted for dabbling in the Void, let alone summoning demons which were their active enemies at the time.

[Beelzebul-nazgrel]

@Cantaloupe-wyrmrest-accord

Xe’ra almost had Alleria deleted for dabbling in the Void

Almost

@Cantaloupe-wyrmrest-accord

let alone summoning demons which were their active enemies at the time.

summoning and ensalving.

[Greatbrae-dalaran]

This is correct.

There is also allot of ppl that thinks the same that is on charge of lightforging people that thinks the same.

Stuff like this can never be lore freindly.

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

@Beelzebul-nazgrel

You’re ironically asking for a change in culture while we’re asking for the cultures to remain the same and for outcasts allowed to forge their own path.

What I’m asking for is a logical explanation that does not involve a cop-out. Ideally, I wouldn’t be in favor of draenei warlocks, but if we’re going to make them a thing, then the necessary (writing) legwork should have been taken care of by now. Especially since, as I mentioned, the perfect chance came with the end of Legion.