Draenei Warlocks? You ARE kidding?!

Except culture is not an orthodoxy, especially over time.

‘Connection to the Emerald Dream’, ‘Connection to the Elements’, ‘Connection to the Light’, etc. are loose, ambiguous things that can be extremely shallow; throughout the game how often are you tossed a totem or sleeping in a dream and then suddenly ‘you are connected to X’?

As for Lightforged and Draenei being Warlocks, its more or less a cultural evolution, as being embroiled against the Legion for so long some might wear taming the very Demons that hunted them as a sign of victory over said Legion.

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In the Draenei heritage armour questline, you actually meet some Eredar and they give their perspective on why they rejoined the Draenei and help out by solving the problem with Bloodmyst Isles corruption. It’s less “taming demons” and more “Man’ari who were trapped into the Legion because they feared for their lives more than they feared for their souls”.

It’s a really nice questline.

I heavily disagree with that, not only because different modes of thought and circumstance result in wildly different cultures but because it goes hand in hand with the harmfully optimistic, worst case tyrannical, notion of Tabula Rasa.

If there weren’t some degree of it then all cultures would inevitably melt into the same thing, and it dictates that the entities which to those cultures belong are as easily transferable between them as grains of sand to any other spot along the beach.
A notion which, as I’ve said, devalues the various cultures at hand heavily by declaring them totally mutable.

And this is where I think you’re misinterpreting my position, because I’m not saying every member of a race must to their stereotype strictly abide.
The only one making that argument is yourself.

But critical to recognizing where we disagree is the matter following, on the topic of the PC:

I don’t think the PC should even really be a character in that sense.
I think it’s dumb when we’re elevated to Commander, General, Champion, Maw Walker, or what-have-you. Sure, have our character show up in some in-game cinematics, that’s fine, whatever, but for God’s sake have the other characters be the ones really doing things. Characters that they can kill, that can bring stakes, that can fail or fall or turn or any number of things that the PC just can’t.

It’s cooler when a character that can die struggles in contest with a force that may prove their greater than when Cornhusker-Area52 or whatever becomes a living magnifying glass to just delete an Old God.
And it’s just not the same when it’s the PC dying, because I know it’s only ever a temporary thing. There’s just no drama in it.

So with that in mind, the races to which our playable characters belong don’t need to behave in strict conformity to some stereotype of themselves. There can be members that differ, that uptake different paths which make them actually exceptional or unusual.
I exclude the PC from this because I think the PC should just be some guy that goes around killing things, just an average member of their race, not exceptional or unusual, because I don’t think the potential for drama and stakes is there. And I think that focus thereupon is to the detriment of the story and lore in general.

So the disagreement is fundamental.


Yeah, I know, it was just an example given as shorthand to convey the concept.
And because the name John Leaf made me laugh.


That I can see and process obvious information.


It doesn’t need to be for averages to exist, and I’ve earlier in this response outlined why I think averages should to the PC be applied.

I would believe that if they bothered to use Lightforged demon models.
Because it would make sense for the Lightforged to do that to demons.
But they don’t because they’re lazy and make no statements about it as far as I’m aware.

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The Worgen aren’t able to do so SOLELY because of the Harvest Witches, it’s also because the Worgen Curse ENHANCES Druidic Abilities and gives them a connection to the Emerald Dream.

Kul’tirans got their ability through quite a unique origin.

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So much draenei and warlock talk but no gnome paladins?

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No, the Gilneans have Harvest Witches, who are Human. The Worgen Curse came later. The same thing with Shamanism. Early humans practiced that too, but I guess they just forgot because writing.

It’s a game. Deal with it Francis.

I love it when people pull the Lightforged/Draenei Warlock bit and I’m like we’ve had Forsaken priests for quite a long time now but nobody’s said anything.

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Our players have done too much and been entrusted with too much to ever truly be an average member of our race.

Not to mention, “being an average guy” is literally impossible for half the classes in the game which have to be truly exceptional to even exist. Hell, you can’t be an average guy as a Warlock because otherwise the first demon you ever summon would just kill you.

And the other classes can’t be average guys because they have to keep up. A Warrior who isn’t canon fodder in a world where Death Knights, Demon Hunters, Paladins and Monks are running around is never going to be anything but exceptional.

You can subscribe to the idea that we personally aren’t canon, but adventurers are with the pre-Legion Council of the Black Harvest being assembled specifically from the Warlocks who were there when bosses like Illidan or Deathwing fell.

Your entire argument falls apart when presented with the reality that the players, even when we’re nameless goons, are not anywhere close to an average member of our races.

Welcome to WoW 2024, where lore hasn’t mattered for a long time, but “dress up” transmogs and customizations do.

Which is the fault of the writers not keeping it to the more inconspicuous band of mercenaries and adventurers of a particular faction, opting instead to blow up the significance of our character in specific for such tales as were told in WoD and BfA.
I can only speak for myself here, but I don’t think missteps further missteps beget, and I think the narrative abysm of those two expansions attests well enough to that.

Only if you interpret it disingenuously, rather than as “an average person of that particular class”.

It wasn’t an argumentative position, it was an explanation on why we won’t ever agree here.
Because we both hold entirely opposing views on how the PC ought to be handled.
Ought being of prime significance because I was never contesting or debating the events of the story as written but posing that it would be better if it were written otherwise and my reasons therefor.

… Void elves are radiating shadow energy which is the antithesis of Light. In one of the audio books it described how merely touching was enough to blast Turalyon and Alleria apart. Undead aren’t a race, it’s a cursed condition. One where the healing effects of the Light can cause intense problems with the Undead. In the minute cases they start feeling the decay and maggots in their flesh. In extreme it’s like fire cauterizing them.

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The OP cares about lore when it’s something he doesn’t like.

But when it comes to something he wants, he just throws lore out the window.

Draenei Warlocks? BAD
Bringing back Frostmourne so he can complete his transmog? GOOD

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Draenei Warlocks are cool but only because Blizzard implemented the Eredar skin in so you can be an Eredar Warlock. That makes sense.

Lightforged Warlocks are complete nonsense, though!

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Why would it have to be the same Frostmourne and not, like, an item that has the same appearance being sold by shifty Ethereals for some esoteric currency?

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if it leads to Zandalari Demon Hunters I’m all for rewriting lore like we’ve invaded a new timeline in the WoW multiverse.

but no nelf paladins…

All bets were off when there was a Lightforged Dreadlord.

Lothraxion said it was okay.

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The temptation to swap characters to my LFD Warlock for this reply was strong.

Don’t know and I don’t care.

That wasn’t the point I was making.